RE: Archive question | <– Date –> <– Thread –> |
From: Greg Dunn (MyListsgregdunn.com) | |
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:01:02 -0700 (MST) |
>> The messages on "archives" , "yahoo", and "listservs" border on being off-topic for Cohousing-L in the sense that I suspect most people are not interested in them but clearly some are. I hope we can get back to discussing cohousing soon. << (Trying to keep this brief...) In my experience, problems related to differences of opinion about what is and isn't on-topic in a given discussion group almost inevitably arise on list servers - much more so than in the other available media. It's probably the thing I like least about them. These problems arise because list servers are a "push" technology - they push email down to your inbox, *and* they don't provide the option to be used in any other way. If you want to participate, you must agree to have an uncontrolled number of emails delivered to your inbox, where *you* must find a way to manage them. Because of that, the amount of message traffic quickly becomes a serious issue for most participants. [1] So list servers, as a medium, create a conflict between the goal of lively, active dialog - so important to community building - and the goal of minimizing the overhead associated with participating in that dialog. In my opinion, there are alternatives that provide better overall support to virtual community. Greg Dunn -------- [1] You can reduce the number by selecting digest mode, but that makes partipating in the discussion very cumbersome, since it's impossible to reply specifically to individual messages. -----Original Message----- From: cohousing-l-admin [at] cohousing.org [mailto:cohousing-l-admin [at] cohousing.org] On Behalf Of Fred H Olson Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 1:44 PM To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org Subject: RE: [C-L]_Archive question Dec 14, 2002: Check out new URL at end of this (and every list message) for Cohousing-L info page. Season's Greetings. Fred, list manager. - - The messages on "archives" , "yahoo", and "listservs" border on being off-topic for Cohousing-L in the sense that I suspect most people are not interested in them but clearly some are. I hope we can get back to discussing cohousing soon. The first messages did prompt me to set up an easier URL for the Cohousing-L Info Page: http://www.cohousing.org/cohousing-L I hope everyone becomes familiar with it, it should answer a lot of questions. There is even a link to my page "About Mailing lists". Having it's the url of Cohousing-L Info Page at the bottom of every message should make it easy to find when you need it. (I'll take the banner about this off the beginning of list messages shortly.) As list manager I've responded to a number of the messages below and of course my responses reflect my personal preferences generally. Feel free to ignore the rest of this message. Yahoogroups - pluses, minuses and interesting: + free and anyone can start a list for discussion or announcements + Web-based searchable archives "My groups" page for those who read + multiple Yahoogroups - ads,ads,ads Paying $60/month removes the first advantage and even paid lists have ads on their website including the annoying intervening ad page when accessing an some archived messages. - lack of support, most yahoogroup managers I know don't bother to ask for support any more - they ask each other over a yahoogroup. - Potential for privacy abuse and other undesirable changes. I think there is some potential here tho mostly for new schemes to increase ads. Yahoo has tried a couple time to put ads at the beginning of messages distributed - I think user outcry has forced them to backtrack. o There is a way of restricting Yahoogroup subscriber lists. o Other features have potential but are seldom used. In particular the o Calendar feature but I consider a poorly maintained calendar LESS useful than no calendar and maintaining a web based calendar is a big job. I have seldom seen it done well for an extended period (years). I use Yahoogroups for a number of mostly small lists - I'm thinking of moving some of those to Mailman. Mailman, which was discussed in two messages, is the list server that cohousng-L uses. Mailman has web-based archives, nomail mode, web based user commands, NO ADS and IMHO better/easier web-based list admin than Yahoo. I know of no Mailman hosts that allow free lists on all topics (there is one for tech subjects). Mailman is Open Source which I find desirable - see http://www.opensource.org Cohousing-L does not currently use the Mailman archives but has complete (10 years - 60 Mbytes) of web based archives and two search mechanisms - full text and subject line. Cohousing-L features - commands, archives, searching are accessed via the Cohousing-L Info Page http://www.cohousing.org/cohousing-L Cohousing-L is generally not "moderated" by which I mean messages are generally posted without being reviewed. I review messages that are "rejected" for reasons such as containing html, being too long, or coming from an address that is not subscribed to the list (some of the latter are Spam some are address problems.) I'd like to find a way to reject message with nothing or the word "digest" in the subject line. I did experiment with moderating all messages a while back but concluded it was more work than the benefits warranted. I may put the list in moderation on occasion. For example to filter out messages on this topic :) (Joke joke!) The Yahoogroups Cohousing-L is primarily a secondary (backup) archive. It does allow Yahoogroup users to read the list in nomail mode via their "My lists" page. And to find cohousing-L via the extensive list of lists. HTML in email is problematic for some people, consumes extra bandwidth and archive space and the html tags are sometimes visible to some users, in digests and archives. As someone pointed out the capabilities of html are seldom used. When they are needed (for tables, for example) a solution is for the html to be put on the web as a regular web page and the URL of the page to be mentioned in a Cohousing-L message. I would welcome a volunteer help create such pages. (I've done it a few times.) Long documents are also best posted as web pages and then announced on the list. I choose to not allow html on cohousing-L. Newsgroups and web based discussions typically have more features such as threading, some keep track of what you've read etc. But they require the participants to come to them. Mailing list discussions take place "in people's inbox", that is the discussion comes to the participants. This is a huge advantage, particularly for small volume or sporadic discussions. The flip side of this is that high volume lists can overwhelm people's inbox. Hence my off-topic messages. I looked at WIKI lists - they appear to be a more collaborative web based interaction system. They are not as linear as most discussions - participants can go back and modify postings so they function better for reference. I'd guess that they work best for small dedicated groups but for larger groups the increased complexity would hinder participation. Maybe there is a way for most people to participate as a listserv and some people take on an editorial role. I think there is lots of room for improved software to conduct discussions. I have a wish list but that's another discussion. Fred, cohousing-L list manager -- Fred H. Olson Minneapolis,MN 55411 (near north Mpls) fholson [at] cohousing.org 612-588-9532 (7am-10pm Cent time) List manager of Cohousing-L & Nbhd-tc Ham radio:WB0YQM Email signature details: http://www.cohousing.org/fholson _______________________________________________ Cohousing-L mailing list Cohousing-L [at] cohousing.org Unsubscribe and other info: http://www.cohousing.org/cohousing-L _______________________________________________ Cohousing-L mailing list Cohousing-L [at] cohousing.org Unsubscribe and other info: http://www.cohousing.org/cohousing-L
- RE: List Servers non-support of HTML, (continued)
- RE: List Servers non-support of HTML Casey Morrigan, December 23 2002
- RE: types of list servs (was 'Archive question') Greg Dunn, December 19 2002
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RE: Archive question Sheila Braun, December 22 2002
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RE: Archive question Fred H Olson, December 22 2002
- RE: Archive question Greg Dunn, December 23 2002
- Winter solstice at Sharingwood Rob Sandelin, December 23 2002
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RE: Archive question Fred H Olson, December 22 2002
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