Re: Childrens behavior at community dinner
From: vicky wason (vlwasonhotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 06:20:48 -0800 (PST)
Hello,

I live at Wasatch Commons in Salt Lake City. We have lived in here for 8 years, and noise at dinners has always been a problem.

Anne Fleck at JPC in  Seattle wrote:

"We have Armstrong tiles on the dining room ceiling. It was evident how
effective these were when we'd only installed 1/4 of the room. Cheap,
easy, we did it ourselves (after lots of discussion and organization).
Huge difference."

I would like more details on these tiles. What kind exactly were they? How much? How did you install them?

Thanks.

Vicky Wason

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Childrens behavior at community dinner (Dahako [at] aol.com)
   2. Re: dining hall layout (was Childrens behavior at community
      dinner) (James Kacki)
   3. Re: Childrens behavior at community dinner (James Kacki)
   4. quiet(er) dinners (Anne Fleck)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:26:43 EST
From: Dahako [at] aol.com
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Childrens behavior at community dinner
To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
Message-ID: <c3c.861adbb.328a7553 [at] aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hi -

I'm a parent who cannot stand din during dinner (partly because I already
have some hearing loss), so I am often the person who gets up and firmly escorts
 loud children into the kids room or outside, and closes the door behind
them.  I tell the little ones that we don't run or yell in the dining room
during common meals. I encourage the older kids to set a good example, which is slowly taking hold so the older kids are starting to help the younger ones.

I started doing this during development.  None of the other parents  have
ever told me to stop, some have thanked me, and some have asked me to try other words or suggested tactics. During the past year (our second since move-in), some of the non-parents have started regularly talking to the noisy kids and helping them find better ways to act during common meals. Most of the kids
are taking this really well.

Also, on their own, the kids (ages about 2-12) started sitting separately
from the s in a far corner of the dining room during meals. I talked to
them early on and worked out an agreement that I would support them keeping
the kids table if they supported my ability to hear conversations during meals.
 They don't always remember, but most of time our deal  holds. They eat
pretty quickly and go off to the kids room (which has a separate door to get outside, plus plate glass windows between it and the dining space. Oddly enough, the 15 year old usually prefers to sit with the s (not her parents!!!)
than with the kids.

Jessie Handforth Kome
Eastern Village Cohousing
Silver Spring, Maryland
"Where, for the first time, my 12-year-old son made a hot dish (mac  and
cheese) for the Monday potluck, all by himself! No grown-ups in the kitchen at
all. A big cohousing moment."


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:29:49 -0600
From: James Kacki <jimkacki [at] mts.net>
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ dining hall layout (was Childrens behavior at
        community dinner)
To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
Message-ID: <4559382D.1070505 [at] mts.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Curtains, half walls, partial walls can not solve an acoustic problem.
Even floor to ceiling folding walls can not solve the problem unless
they are the very expensive acoustic walls.  Design and planning can
help, I believe, but solutions with large (even small) open spaces
between separations allow noise to pass easily. Soft materials     en
sound somewhat, physical separation works well.  Does anyone have a plan
layout that works well for kid noise problems.
James

Andrew Netherton wrote:
> I'll admit, as a parent I have simply developed a tolerance for the
> din.  That's not to say that I like it!
>
> Of the few common house pictures and plans that I've seen (never
> having seen a live common house at all yet), all the dining areas seem
> to be one big room with tables and chairs in it.  Forgive me for yet
> again taking a design-oriented approach to this issue ("If all you
> have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail."  I'm an
> engineer - mea culpa.), but does this accurately reflect how community
> dinners happen on a social level?
>
> On first blush, I'd be tempted to take a dining hall, and instead of
> making it a cafeteria-style open-concept eating room, turn it into
> more of a restaurant layout, where there are many tables of various
> sizes, each visually accessible to the others yet physically removed
> somewhat, either with curtains, half-walls, or something like that.
> These partitions could serve as sound barriers.  They don't have to be
> permanent; a folding wall or a partition on wheels would work too, and
> preserve the all-purpose ability of the space in question.
>
> Is that going too far?  Can surface treatments be enough to promote
> lower noise levels?  When it comes to kids I realize parenting needs
> to be part of the solution, but judicious use of materials and layout
> could certainly help, no?
>
> Regards,
> Andrew Netherton
> Laurel Creek Commons (forming)
> Waterloo, ON, Canada
>
> On 11/13/06, Rob Sandelin <floriferous [at] msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Deborah Mensch posted about children at dinner under a different subject >>heading so I changed the subject heading. Please, the only way to find stuff >>in the archive is by subject, and so if your post does not match the title
>>in the subject, please consider changing the subject so that it matches.
>>
>>I have had dinner at several cohousing groups and one of the common
>>denominators is the dinner behavior Debra described, where kids are up and
>>active and parents sit and have       conversations amid the din.  It is
>>this very environment that I find that I can't deal with and so I have not >>attended community meals for some time. Many parents have a high noise and >>activity filter and so the din is just normal background for them. For those >>who are not parents, or who have a different meal time expectation, the din >>can be overwhelming. At Sharingwood we have tried many ways of managing this >>and none of them stuck, for the very reason that the parents did not notice >>a problem or think it was a big deal. One by one people have dropped out of >>dinner and so all that are left are the most noise tolerant diners. This is >>a natural selection of sorts but to my surprise, the suggestion of a private >>quiet dinner club in peoples homes was met with some hostility and thus has
>>not yet happened.
>>
>>So I am curious about this. Do people who want quiet, peaceful dining
>>habitats have their needs met in your community around group meals?
>>
>>
>>Rob Sandelin
>>Sharingwood Cohousing, Snohomish County
>>Naturalist, Writer
>>The Environmental Science School
>>http://www.nonprofitpages.com/nica/SVE.htm
>>
>>><((((?>`?..?`?..?`?...><((((?>...?`?..?`?...><((((?>.?`?..?`?...><((((?>.?`
>>
>>?..?`?...><((((?>?.. ><((((?>
>>?`?..?`?...?..?`><((((?>.?`?..?`?...><((((?>.?`?..?`?...><((((?>..?`?..?`?..
>>.><((((?>?.. ?`?..?`?....?`?..?`?...><((((?>
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/2006
>>
>>
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>
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>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:43:58 -0600
From: James Kacki <jimkacki [at] mts.net>
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Childrens behavior at community dinner
To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
Message-ID: <45593B7E.6050707 [at] mts.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Yours seems to be a good solution! My kids went to Montessori pre-school
where kids are treated with utmost respect and are expected to act with
consideration for others and receive consideration from others. They
were shown the difference between an 'indoor' voice and an 'outdoor'
voice.  20 kids in the school and whenever I went there it was
marvellously quiet and the kids were happy, laughing, content and always
involved in some interesting activity or play time. It taught me that if
you have high expectations of kids, find and nurture the best in them
and treat them with respect, they can return the consideration. (When
they got home it was another story :-) ), but it showed me that that
approach can work wonderfully.  But obviously all parents must have a
common approach during mealtimes in the common house for this to work.
James

Dahako [at] aol.com wrote:
> Hi -
>
> I'm a parent who cannot stand din during dinner (partly because I already > have some hearing loss), so I am often the person who gets up and firmly escorts
>  loud children into the kids room or outside, and closes the door behind
> them. I tell the little ones that we don't run or yell in the dining room > during common meals. I encourage the older kids to set a good example, which is > slowly taking hold so the older kids are starting to help the younger ones.
>
> I started doing this during development. None of the other parents have > ever told me to stop, some have thanked me, and some have asked me to try other > words or suggested tactics. During the past year (our second since move-in), > some of the non-parents have started regularly talking to the noisy kids and > helping them find better ways to act during common meals. Most of the kids
> are taking this really well.
>
> Also, on their own, the kids (ages about 2-12) started sitting separately > from the s in a far corner of the dining room during meals. I talked to > them early on and worked out an agreement that I would support them keeping > the kids table if they supported my ability to hear conversations during meals.
>  They don't always remember, but most of time our deal  holds. They eat
> pretty quickly and go off to the kids room (which has a separate door to get > outside, plus plate glass windows between it and the dining space. Oddly enough, > the 15 year old usually prefers to sit with the s (not her parents!!!)
> than with the kids.
>
> Jessie Handforth Kome
> Eastern Village Cohousing
> Silver Spring, Maryland
> "Where, for the first time, my 12-year-old son made a hot dish (mac  and
> cheese) for the Monday potluck, all by himself! No grown-ups in the kitchen at
> all. A big cohousing moment."
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
> http://www.cohousing.org/cohousing-L/
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 23:14:39 -0800
From: Anne Fleck <solianna [at] cablespeed.com>
Subject: [C-L]_ quiet(er) dinners
To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
Message-ID: <CAE184FC-73AF-11DB-B7AE-000393A3A8FC [at] cablespeed.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

FYI:

This is what's worked for us so far - 5+ years in  - at Jackson Place
Coho - Seattle.

We have a short list (5-6) of expectations posted in our dining room.
(IE no running, indoor voices, clean tables after eating, etc). Kids
and      s have agreed to these. Anybody can remind people of these.

We have a kids team (sporadically) that includes kids to help formulate
acceptable behavior guidelines. They are for everyone. Note: If you
tell your kids they can not walk around the room with food then you
%       ) better not either.

We have Armstrong tiles on the dining room ceiling. It was evident how
effective these were when we'd only installed 1/4 of the room. Cheap,
easy, we did it ourselves (after lots of discussion and organization).
Huge difference.

We installed Levelour style mini blinds on all of the windows (3 sides
of the room) which, when angled horizontally, create a curved surface
which reduces reflected noise off the glass PLUS providing an available
& effective sun block and a bit of heat insulation.

Our dining chairs are upholstered in durable fabric. A few have vinyl
covers for kid seats. Cuts the noise, too.

We have a kids room for smaller kids and a living room for older kids
w/ TV & games.

We included soft furniture (overstuffed sofa and chairs) in the dining
room which helps reduce sound bounce. Plus a piano which doesn't - BUT
you can't play during dinner.

We have some parents who have let their kids know that meals are quiet
family time. Their kids are expected to sit at the table until the big
hand is on the X and the little hand is on the Y. It works. Often,
another       holds a noisy little one or talks with an older one while
the parent enjoys a quieter meal and conversation.

Some nights are better than others. Since we've found that our meal
program is the glue that holds things together we have a large turn-out
each meal (35-40 out of 65 people). I know that each member tolerates
the noise and/or "chaos" at least occasionally in order to enjoy the
company of their neighbors and a good meal.

Good luck,
Anne Fleck JPC - Seattle




------------------------------

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