Re: On child proofing the CH with locks on drawer and cupboards
From: Diana Carroll (dianaecarrollgmail.com)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 06:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
Me: And you assume that having adults express displeasure with them counts
as negative enough to learn not to do it.  That is not only often wrong, it
is also not inline with the actual childhood development psychology.

Sharon: Never express displeasure? Children need to know how other people
feel.

I don't know what you are talking about with saying "never express
displeasure".  What?

Obviously adults express displeasure.  But you seem to think that doing so
inherently means that witnessing an adult's displeasure, per se, is
aversive enough to prevent a child from repeating the behavior that evoked
the displeasure.  That is patently, observably wrong.  Sometimes, maybe?
But, like, I have children, and a lot of children me and...no.  Sometimes,
sure, but as a rule?  No.  And it's DEVELOPMENTALLY APPROPRIATE that that's
the case.  If my 2 year old stopped running down the path ahead of me the
first time I growled at him about it, there'd actually be something wrong
with him (as pleasant as it would be for me in the short term.)

We all know no child has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar
twice, right?  Or, you know, 829 times.

Or, just to choose a wildly hypothetical random definitely not true
example, if my 17 year old immediately dumped his girlfriend because I
expressed how much I believe they are not a good match for each other and
how she should get away fast...that would be very surprising.

Or another definitely unrelated to real life example, if my 18 year old
chose to take a philosophy class next semester instead of the next class in
his film sequence, even though the film class is only offered Fall semester
and is the pre-requisite to all the follow-on classes, and I expressed my
disapproval of his course selection, I would NOT expect him to immediately
fall in line with my preferences.  (I might expect his advisor to have
offered him better advice, though.  Hypothetically speaking, of course.)





On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 1:57 PM Sharon Villines <sharon [at] sharonvillines.com>
wrote:

> > On Jun 26, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Diana Carroll <dianaecarroll [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > However, your argument for that is very problematic, and seems to rest
> on the idea that the worst that can happen with a kid getting into a drawer
> they shouldn't is dumping some tea or drawing with markers.  The worst that
> can happen is that the kid dies.
>
> What would they die of?
>
> > You also assume that kids will naturally learn not to do something from
> ONE negative (non-death) experience. Sometimes that's the case and
> sometimes it isn’t.
>
> If it isn’t, then you deal with that. In a public space children are
> normally much more observant than at home with parents. When kids are at my
> house, they are wonderfully behaved (normally) because I’m not their parent
> whom they have learned to get around.
>
> > And you assume that having adults express displeasure with them counts
> as negative enough to learn not to do it.  That is not only often wrong, it
> is also not inline with the actual childhood development psychology.
>
> ????? Never express displeasure? Children need to know how other people
> feel.
>
> >  With that theory, no kid would ever do a bad thing twice...which, you
> know...isn't how kids work.
>
> Amazingly, it often is. But they aren’t given a chance. I have a one
> finger rule that my mother developed for a too curious brother. They can
> touch anything they want with one finger.  I don’t put away figurines,
> paper flowers, etc. (Recently 2 sixteen year olds came back to reminisce
> and went around the apartment identifying all the one-finger things. Very
> funny.)
>
> Some are incorrigible and you have to adjust. We had one little boy like
> that who moved away recently. He was very physical and had no fear. But his
> parents were fully aware and he was almost never out of eyesight.
>
> > And you mention special needs kids...that's a pretty broad term.  If you
> are arguing with a parent in your community about what their kid needs, who
> are you to decide whether they are "special needs" or not?
>
> I’m  using it in a broad sense of the example above. If there is a child
> in the community who can’t be trusted  to observe the norms or isn’t
> capable, then more prevention may be required.
>
> We do have a situation since we are in a city that children under 6-7 are
> almost never in the CH alone.
>
> Not arguing, just asking and clarifying.
>
> Sharon
> ----
> Sharon Villines
> Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
> http://www.takomavillage.org
>
>
>
>
>

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