Cohousing-L Mailing List: NVC & Sociocracy [was Screening prospective members for sexual abuse in their background

[Maggie McGovern (mcgroovin2000]

Im not sure why my post didnt show as I’d written it with italics for what 
Sharon had written. See below so it’s more accurate. I also sent this before 
more current comments so it’s behind. Maggie

Sent from my iPad

> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 18:17:19 -0800
> From: Maggie McGovern <mcgroovin2000 [at] yahoo.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: [C-L]_ NVC & Sociocracy [was Screening prospective members
>    for sexual abuse in their background
> Message-ID: <AF2A527F-8853-412A-B356-8E23CDE6E1A8 [at] yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8
> 
> ? Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:22:33 -0500
> From: Sharon Villines <sharon [at] sharonvillines.com>
> To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Subject: [C-L]_ NVC & Sociocracy [was Screening prospective members
>   for sexual abuse in their background
> 
> “Unless we apply the same cautions that we apply in our personal lives and 
> develop skills at problem solving and knowing when to call in a professional, 
> we will just repeat the same patterns. The solution is developing people 
> skills and striving for understanding, not blame or correction or punishment 
> (?fines?).?
> 
> ?The melding of NVC and sociocracy in Step 3 was particularly insightful. By 
> focusing on analyzing the ?essence,? not just the ?needs,? of the people, it 
> asked the question what is really going on here? It placed the conflict in 
> its social context which was particularly useful in the context of the the 
> classroom and the larger context of the school. It analyzed the social 
> context and the policies of the organization, not just individual needs.
> 
> The opportunity of cohousing is that this kind of people understanding will 
> be developed and encouraged.
> 
> But it means everyone has to go into cohousing expecting to spend the time to 
> understand each other, not to develop a process for being sure everyone is 
> perfect or free of any possible ?pathologies? before they can join a 
> developing group. “

> - quoted from Sharon’s email

Then I wrote:
> 
> I think some of these intentions are great especially when you are lucky 
> enough to have a group of people on board with all you mentioned. But I also 
> think this mindset is being blind to reality and is part of the problem. 
> Everyone is not necessarily going to do or want what you said in this last 
> paragraph. I?m curious if you really think ?everyone has to go into cohousing 
> expecting to spend the time to understand each other, not to develop a 
> process for being sure everyone is perfect or free of any possible 
> pathologies before they can join a developing group.?? Do all cohosting 
> communities you?ve seen have that make up? That sounds wonderful. Mine 
> didn?t, I know of others that don?t. So it?s just not reality for some. Nor 
> does that dream solve anything for those who don?t have that right now. 
> 
> The reality is that not all cohousing members can or will try to understand 
> each other as you long for. I too wish they did! But assuming everyone is 
> like that is going to have you ignore major issues. When you have someone who 
> won?t communicate, won?t meet with a professional, and continues to abuse 
> someone else then you need more than this. There needs to be some 
> accountability for those who chose actions that harm. There also needs to be 
> a fair way to assess harm. The assumption that all problems in cohousing can 
> be solved with good intentions or certain communication tools is enabling 
> abuse and harm. Cohousing is more prone to this in my mind than other 
> non-community focused HOAs because people assume the same, that all will 
> follow or try to follow agreements and work to understand and do conflict 
> resolution. Having agreements alone puts cohousing in a different category. 
> If a new member is given agreements and told that the community has all 
> agreed to those agreements that is mi
> sleading when some members do not at all agree to the agreements. The fact is 
> some come in and don?t intend to live by the agreements or don?t realize they 
> can?t or won?t until they?ve lived there for a bit. I?ve seen many cohousing 
> members be blind to abuse because they are so attached to conflict resolution 
> and the written agreements even when agreements aren?t being followed and 
> harm is being done. At that point it?s no longer appropriate or safe to 
> follow the conflict resolution guidelines if they say nothing about what to 
> do if someone won?t follow the agreements. It?s a big hole and big assumption 
> to assume and act as if all follow those agreements. And cohousing 
> communities should be following the law. Harassment needs to be investigated 
> when it is asked for. Sure we all hope it doesn?t come to that, but too often 
> it does.
> 
> I teach NVC (Nonviolent Communication), many beginners think NVC is 
> advocating to just talk and not to act. But there is a very important concept 
> called protective use of force. As you get deeper into NVC communities you 
> will find that this is a very complex thing. But it advocates for protection 
> when protection is needed. It acknowledges that someone can harm another. NVC 
> does not say to trust all humans and that all can be communicated with 
> safely. Deciding when protection is needed is often a cause of much conflict 
> within NVC circles. There is no easy fix. Harm, protection, violations are 
> all tricky subjects and not easy to agree on at times. But listening and 
> understanding does not alleviate all harm. A victim should not be asked to 
> listen to and understand the perpetrator. I am a huge advocate of NVC AND I?m 
> an advocate of reducing harm and protecting people. Ive worked with 
> restorative justice and trauma healing and NVC for years. None of these will 
> guarantee prevention of peop
> le moving to cohousing and causing harm. NVC doesn?t clarify how to use 
> protective use of force fairly in a very biased, prejudiced, injured world. 
> Like everyone, NVC folks also have implicit bias and I?ve seen that play out 
> in cohousing in scary ways. People can use their concept of NVC in a way that 
> harms. I would say they aren?t actually using the essence of it but some 
> think they are, this includes some trainers so I think we need to be careful 
> abut how we use NVC and there need to be guidelines beyond NVC.
> 
> When I share about being harassed and it not being investigated (as it 
> legally should be) and that the person harassing me wouldn?t communicate with 
> me or do mediations of any form and they have a history of targeting single 
> women and you seem to say to talk it out and that people should come to 
> cohousing wanting to develop understanding and look at their patterns, etc, 
> it is a form of ignoring what I said and not addressing the problem. Which 
> happens often when people (especially women and minorities) name harm and 
> this response enables the harm. 
> 
> I think some cohousing communities could protect people and themselves by 
> becoming more educated on violations in communities and power dynamics in 
> communities (both are also online courses) as well as implicit bias (lots of 
> courses on that). I also think having accurately written documents would help 
> as well as having things written and in place for when agreements are not 
> followed and for when violations do occur. Rules and Regulations seem like a 
> basic necessity but my community doesn't have them so that too should be in 
> place along with CC&Rs and by-laws. I also think there should be a harassment 
> policy and procedure (in addition to a general violations guideline).
> 
> Another thing I thought of to help prospective members screen people and 
> communities (not the original topic but I don?t think we have to be so 
> linear) is if possible to show them some email threads from the community 
> email. Ours is very telling and if someone asked and it was OK?d with the 
> community I would share the problematic ones. I am not sure the legality of 
> that. HOA emails seem like they could be accessed by the public legally but I 
> don?t know.
> 
> I think screening prospective members (and their housemates, partners, 
> friends that might chose to live there later) is very difficult, if even 
> possible, and thus we need to have some of the above protections in place for 
> when we get less than ideal ones and that?s why I mention it. 
> 
> Maggie
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 15:09:46 -0800
> From: Allison Tom <allisonrtom [at] gmail.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: [C-L]_ Charging to use community facilities, especially guest
>    rooms
> Message-ID:
>    <CAHdY=27jRpA5QsmaHZQFnG6H4XUNHv+YrA9vLPv9WUiOU+5uxw [at] mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> I am about to reengage with my community on the topic of charging guests
> (in practice, usually hosts) a nightly fee for the use of our guest room.
> 
> I was gobsmacked when our working group proposed charging members to use
> the common house for private events and to host guests in our guest
> facilities.
> 
> For years I'd heard about how we could choose to live in smaller homes
> because we had the facilities of the community at our disposal. I heard
> repetitive statements such as "these facilities are an extension of our
> homes."  And yet the working group proposed to charge families for events
> such as children's birthday parties and for guest accommodations.
> 
> The suggestion to charge for common house use was dropped, and many members
> have hosted events in our common house. But there was no uptake on my
> arguments that charging for guest room use was contrary to the philosophy
> of sharing resources to reduce our personal costs and our footprint.
> Frankly, I don't understand how or why this one use can be separated from
> all other free uses but I feel like an outsider in holding this opinion -
> it's as if we aren't coming from the same world.
> 
> The policy is up for review again and I'm looking for help.
> 
> Please write to me personally at this address or respond to the list, as
> you wish.
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES CHARGE for guest rooms or other facilities, what is
> the philosophy behind that charge? How do you make sense of it? (This is
> not a snarky question, I genuinely don't understand, especially when I ask
> for a principled reason for charging.)
> 
> How much do you charge? Who is responsible for cleaning and prepping the
> room for the next guest? Where do you live (urban, rural, high cost or
> relatively low cost of living)?  What is the average size of a family
> unit?  Do you charge for the use of other facilities such as common house,
> common meeting space, workshop, bike room, kids' playroom?
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES NOT CHARGE for the use of guest rooms or other
> facilities, what principles guided your community away from charging?
> 
> Then, if you will, the questions I posed for those who do charge:  Who is
> responsible for cleaning and prepping the room for the next guest? Where do
> you live (urban, rural, high cost or relatively low cost of living)?  What
> is the average size of a family unit?  Do you charge for the use of other
> facilities such as common house, common meeting space, workshop, bike room,
> kids' playroom?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Allison Tom
> Driftwood Village Cohousing, North Vancouver, BC
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 00:10:10 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Bonnie Fergusson <fergyb2 [at] yahoo.com>
> To: <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Charging to use community facilities, especially
>    guest rooms
> Message-ID: <336288518.219427.1646611810959 [at] mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Here at Swans Market every homeowners unit gets 3 free guest room nights a 
> year and after that we get charged $10 per night for family and friends?which 
> we pay tax on and the remainder goes to pay utility and upkeep costs of the 
> guest room. ?We charge more, I think it?s $20 a night for ?Community guests? 
> which are mostly folks from other Cohousing communities, or occasionally 
> others. ?We came to this policy a few years after move in?because some 
> households never use the guest room and others use it a lot so it seemed to 
> make sense to have a usage fee while still preserving some free night 
> options. ?We don?t charge for use of the rest of the?common house at all, 
> ever, partly for philosophical reasons and partly because the common House is 
> used so frequently by all of us it would be a pain in the butt to administer 
> and collect fees. ?Guest room fees are charged to the unit and Community 
> guests need to have a resident host who is responsible for?collecting the 
> money among other things.
> ? ?Currently we do not allow any use of the Guest room due to the pandemic as 
> part of our attempt to keep the virus at bay. ?Now that the case?numbers are 
> dropping we may open up again sometime in the next month or so, covid 
> willing.Bonnie FergussonSwans Market CohousingOakland, CA
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
> 
> 
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022, 3:10 PM, Allison Tom <allisonrtom [at] gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> I am about to reengage with my community on the topic of charging guests
> (in practice, usually hosts) a nightly fee for the use of our guest room.
> 
> I was gobsmacked when our working group proposed charging members to use
> the common house for private events and to host guests in our guest
> facilities.
> 
> For years I'd heard about how we could choose to live in smaller homes
> because we had the facilities of the community at our disposal. I heard
> repetitive statements such as "these facilities are an extension of our
> homes."? And yet the working group proposed to charge families for events
> such as children's birthday parties and for guest accommodations.
> 
> The suggestion to charge for common house use was dropped, and many members
> have hosted events in our common house. But there was no uptake on my
> arguments that charging for guest room use was contrary to the philosophy
> of sharing resources to reduce our personal costs and our footprint.
> Frankly, I don't understand how or why this one use can be separated from
> all other free uses but I feel like an outsider in holding this opinion -
> it's as if we aren't coming from the same world.
> 
> The policy is up for review again and I'm looking for help.
> 
> Please write to me personally at this address or respond to the list, as
> you wish.
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES CHARGE for guest rooms or other facilities, what is
> the philosophy behind that charge? How do you make sense of it? (This is
> not a snarky question, I genuinely don't understand, especially when I ask
> for a principled reason for charging.)
> 
> How much do you charge? Who is responsible for cleaning and prepping the
> room for the next guest? Where do you live (urban, rural, high cost or
> relatively low cost of living)?? What is the average size of a family
> unit?? Do you charge for the use of other facilities such as common house,
> common meeting space, workshop, bike room, kids' playroom?
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES NOT CHARGE for the use of guest rooms or other
> facilities, what principles guided your community away from charging?
> 
> Then, if you will, the questions I posed for those who do charge:? Who is
> responsible for cleaning and prepping the room for the next guest? Where do
> you live (urban, rural, high cost or relatively low cost of living)?? What
> is the average size of a family unit?? Do you charge for the use of other
> facilities such as common house, common meeting space, workshop, bike room,
> kids' playroom?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Allison Tom
> Driftwood Village Cohousing, North Vancouver, BC
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
> http://L.cohousing.org/info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 00:19:43 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Bonnie Fergusson <fergyb2 [at] yahoo.com>
> To: <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Charging to use community facilities, especially
>    guest rooms
> Message-ID: <1764358266.273927.1646612383437 [at] mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Oh, and we are very urban in an expensive area. ?We have 20 units and family 
> size ranges from 1 to 4 not including pets. ?Hosts are responsible for set 
> up, clean up, collecting money and orienting guests to our rules.Bonnie 
> Fergusson Swans Market Cohousing Oakland, CA?
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
> 
> 
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022, 4:10 PM, Bonnie Fergusson via Cohousing-L 
> <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org> wrote:
> 
> Here at Swans Market every homeowners unit gets 3 free guest room nights a 
> year and after that we get charged $10 per night for family and friends?which 
> we pay tax on and the remainder goes to pay utility and upkeep costs of the 
> guest room. ?We charge more, I think it?s $20 a night for ?Community guests? 
> which are mostly folks from other Cohousing communities, or occasionally 
> others. ?We came to this policy a few years after move in?because some 
> households never use the guest room and others use it a lot so it seemed to 
> make sense to have a usage fee while still preserving some free night 
> options. ?We don?t charge for use of the rest of the?common house at all, 
> ever, partly for philosophical reasons and partly because the common House is 
> used so frequently by all of us it would be a pain in the butt to administer 
> and collect fees. ?Guest room fees are charged to the unit and Community 
> guests need to have a resident host who is responsible for?collecting the 
> money among other things.
> ? ?Currently we do not allow any use of the Guest room due to the pandemic as 
> part of our attempt to keep the virus at bay. ?Now that the case?numbers are 
> dropping we may open up again sometime in the next month or so, covid 
> willing.Bonnie FergussonSwans Market CohousingOakland, CA
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
> 
> 
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022, 3:10 PM, Allison Tom <allisonrtom [at] gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> I am about to reengage with my community on the topic of charging guests
> (in practice, usually hosts) a nightly fee for the use of our guest room.
> 
> I was gobsmacked when our working group proposed charging members to use
> the common house for private events and to host guests in our guest
> facilities.
> 
> For years I'd heard about how we could choose to live in smaller homes
> because we had the facilities of the community at our disposal. I heard
> repetitive statements such as "these facilities are an extension of our
> homes."? And yet the working group proposed to charge families for events
> such as children's birthday parties and for guest accommodations.
> 
> The suggestion to charge for common house use was dropped, and many members
> have hosted events in our common house. But there was no uptake on my
> arguments that charging for guest room use was contrary to the philosophy
> of sharing resources to reduce our personal costs and our footprint.
> Frankly, I don't understand how or why this one use can be separated from
> all other free uses but I feel like an outsider in holding this opinion -
> it's as if we aren't coming from the same world.
> 
> The policy is up for review again and I'm looking for help.
> 
> Please write to me personally at this address or respond to the list, as
> you wish.
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES CHARGE for guest rooms or other facilities, what is
> the philosophy behind that charge? How do you make sense of it? (This is
> not a snarky question, I genuinely don't understand, especially when I ask
> for a principled reason for charging.)
> 
> How much do you charge? Who is responsible for cleaning and prepping the
> room for the next guest? Where do you live (urban, rural, high cost or
> relatively low cost of living)?? What is the average size of a family
> unit?? Do you charge for the use of other facilities such as common house,
> common meeting space, workshop, bike room, kids' playroom?
> 
> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES NOT CHARGE for the use of guest rooms or other
> facilities, what principles guided your community away from charging?
> 
> Then, if you will, the questions I posed for those who do charge:? Who is
> responsible for cleaning and prepping the room for the next guest? Where do
> you live (urban, rural, high cost or relatively low cost of living)?? What
> is the average size of a family unit?? Do you charge for the use of other
> facilities such as common house, common meeting space, workshop, bike room,
> kids' playroom?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Allison Tom
> Driftwood Village Cohousing, North Vancouver, BC
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
> http://L.cohousing.org/info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
> http://L.cohousing.org/info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 20:24:07 -0500
> From: Elizabeth Magill <pastorlizm [at] gmail.com>
> To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Cc: Bonnie Fergusson <fergyb2 [at] yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Charging to use community facilities, especially
>    guest rooms
> Message-ID:
>    <CAEiam=KSzVD6aKS--=eXB0oAb+B-vbC_rUoncLdiv2=NwZH6yQ [at] mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> We get 5 nights free per household (including affiliate households
> that don't live here). We then pay a small amount for more nights (I
> think it's $10?) and guests pay $20 per night. I think we have some
> kind of exception that visitors from other cohousing groups pay less.
> 
> The fact that something is *mine* doesn't mean it's cost free.  For
> example I "own" my house, but I still pay a fee for electricity.
> Also, this is "all-of-us" choosing to charge "all-of-us."
> I would agree with the previous posting that it makes up for the fast
> that some of us use the room a great deal, others use it rarely.
> 
> For example, my family had a friend lose her housing and we put her up
> for almost 3 months (she moved out of the guest room if someone else
> needed it.)
> 
> It would have felt grossly unfair to use it that much if we did not
> have a policy of paying for the usage.
> 
> Interestingly, our guest rooms have gotten *more* use during covid, as
> we used them for health people to get away from covid-positive family
> members, and for covid-positive members to quarantine away from family
> members.
> 
> -Liz
> (The Rev. Dr.) Elizabeth Mae Magill
> Pastor, Ashburnham Community Church
> Minister to the Affiliates, Ecclesia Ministries
> www.elizabethmaemagill.com
> 508-450-0431
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 7:10 PM Bonnie Fergusson via Cohousing-L
>> <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Here at Swans Market every homeowners unit gets 3 free guest room nights a 
>> year and after that we get charged $10 per night for family and friends 
>> which we pay tax on and the remainder goes to pay utility and upkeep costs 
>> of the guest room.  We charge more, I think it?s $20 a night for ?Community 
>> guests? which are mostly folks from other Cohousing communities, or 
>> occasionally others.  We came to this policy a few years after move in 
>> because some households never use the guest room and others use it a lot so 
>> it seemed to make sense to have a usage fee while still preserving some free 
>> night options.  We don?t charge for use of the rest of the common house at 
>> all, ever, partly for philosophical reasons and partly because the common 
>> House is used so frequently by all of us it would be a pain in the butt to 
>> administer and collect fees.  Guest room fees are charged to the unit and 
>> Community guests need to have a resident host who is responsible for 
>> collecting the money among other things
> .
>>   Currently we do not allow any use of the Guest room due to the pandemic as 
>> part of our attempt to keep the virus at bay.  Now that the case numbers are 
>> dropping we may open up again sometime in the next month or so, covid 
>> willing.Bonnie FergussonSwans Market CohousingOakland, CA
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022, 3:10 PM, Allison Tom <allisonrtom [at] gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello list,
>> 
>> I am about to reengage with my community on the topic of charging guests
>> (in practice, usually hosts) a nightly fee for the use of our guest room.
>> 
>> I was gobsmacked when our working group proposed charging members to use
>> the common house for private events and to host guests in our guest
>> facilities.
>> 
>> For years I'd heard about how we could choose to live in smaller homes
>> because we had the facilities of the community at our disposal. I heard
>> repetitive statements such as "these facilities are an extension of our
>> homes."  And yet the working group proposed to charge families for events
>> such as children's birthday parties and for guest accommodations.
>> 
>> The suggestion to charge for common house use was dropped, and many members
>> have hosted events in our common house. But there was no uptake on my
>> arguments that charging for guest room use was contrary to the philosophy
>> of sharing resources to reduce our personal costs and our footprint.
>> Frankly, I don't understand how or why this one use can be separated from
>> all other free uses but I feel like an outsider in holding this opinion -
>> it's as if we aren't coming from the same world.
>> 
>> The policy is up for review again and I'm looking for help.
>> 
>> Please write to me personally at this address or respond to the list, as
>> you wish.
>> 
>> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES CHARGE for guest rooms or other facilities, what is
>> the philosophy behind that charge? How do you make sense of it? (This is
>> not a snarky question, I genuinely don't understand, especially when I ask
>> for a principled reason for charging.)
>> 
>> How much do you charge? Who is responsible for cleaning and prepping the
>> room for the next guest? Where do you live (urban, rural, high cost or
>> relatively low cost of living)?  What is the average size of a family
>> unit?  Do you charge for the use of other facilities such as common house,
>> common meeting space, workshop, bike room, kids' playroom?
>> 
>> IF YOUR COMMUNITY DOES NOT CHARGE for the use of guest rooms or other
>> facilities, what principles guided your community away from charging?
>> 
>> Then, if you will, the questions I posed for those who do charge:  Who is
>> responsible for cleaning and prepping the room for the next guest? Where do
>> you live (urban, rural, high cost or relatively low cost of living)?  What
>> is the average size of a family unit?  Do you charge for the use of other
>> facilities such as common house, common meeting space, workshop, bike room,
>> kids' playroom?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Allison Tom
>> Driftwood Village Cohousing, North Vancouver, BC
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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> 
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