Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: RE: Coho & LIFESTYLE CHANGES--> Sustainability?

[Stuart Staniford-Chen (stanifor]

Rob's message really got to me, so I find it necessary to take a second cut 
at it.

> 2.  It is  really expensive to remodel a house and add things like 
> kitchens and bathrooms if the house wasn't designed with that in mind.  
> Again, if you are going to do this legally you have to have a building 
> permit, and meet building codes.

Sure.  But the rental income pays for it over time if you plan the project 
with care.  Not something you can do when your debt is maxed out - but not 
impossible down the line - if you don't mind sharing a little of your space.

> 3. There are population concerns so we limit the number of renters to 
> 25% of the total owners population.

Hmmm.  Don't want too many poor people running all over our gorgeous 
acreage, huh?  Look at N St or Southside Park - 40 or 50 people on an acre 
or an acre and a half.  I'm not convinced that you guys have a "population
 problem." 

> Lifestyle changes are possible ways to become more sustainable.  
> Gardening to raise more food is a lifestyle change.  But, if no one is 
> interested in doing all the work a community garden entails, then that 
> doesn't happen.  When you have a day job for 9 or 10 hours(required to 
> pay the mortgage), community responsibilities(meetings and community 
> dinner plus work parties on weekends)  and family responsibilities, 

> Lifestyle changes are possible ways to become more sustainable.  
> Gardening to raise more food is a lifestyle change.  But, if no one is 
> interested in doing all the work a community garden entails, then that 
> doesn't happen.  When you have a day job for 9 or 10 hours(required to 
> pay the mortgage), community responsibilities(meetings and community 
> dinner plus work parties on weekends)  and family responsibilities, 

You're painting a picture that you (collectively not you personally) would 
be more sustainable if only if it weren't for the hardships of modern life.  
This is not so - your situation is the result of your *choices*.  You have 
high paying jobs and big houses because that's the lifestyle you want, 
and that's more important to you than having gardens or than spending 
time trying to be sustainable.  If you had wanted to be sustainable and 
do cohousing and live cheaply, you would never have done a big real 
estate development in the woods - you would have bought (or rented) some 
grungy neglected piece of Seattle to live in.
 
> The trouble with Cohousing is it is so time consuming.  

I don't think this is true at all.  My community frees up my time.  It means 
I don't have to cook several nights a week.  It means there are people who 
will help me if I take on a big project.  It means that I can spend social 
time with people without having to drive somewhere.  And I'm not a parent - 
the easing of childcare burdens around here is amazing.  Eating community 
dinner is not a "responsibility" that sucks up time - it's a benefit!  

And much more important than the time it saves is the quality of the time 
my community gives me - I would never get to spend this much time with 
such neat people if I didn't live in a place like this.  The couple of 
meetings a month I have to go to are a very small price to pay.  (I like 
community meetings anyway - they are so much better than the ones at work).

*Building* a community takes a lot of time maybe, but not living in it.

> The trouble with kids and 
> family is that they are so time consuming.  So when do we have time for 
> a community garden?  Fact is we don't and thus we don't have one.  Yet. 
> Maybe someday.

Finally, although it's true that many things which make ones life more 
sustainable require time, most of what is needed is to consume less stuff.  
I realise this is not something one is supposed to say in polite company - 
it's better to pretend that if we only recycle and don't throw our toxic 
waste in the garbage can, everything is going to be ok.  This is simply not 
the case - the lifestyle that ordinary people have in the West is just not 
sustainable.  It uses too much energy and too much stuff.  We are 
already changing the !*@!@$$! climate because of how much energy we use - 
and we are wiping out most of the other species on the planet because of 
how much land we use.  And what is going to happen as more and more of the 
rest of the world joins us is completely unclear.  For now most of us 
are ignoring these issues most of the time (and I am certainly in this class
too).  We will be able to for a little while longer.

Man, you really got me going, Rob.  I still think you are a great guy 
though, and I relish your contributions to this list.

Stuart.