Cohousing-L Mailing List: Dishwasher round up

Hi,

Good question, Sharon.

I wonder if people feel they have answered this previously, even tho  

you did ask for new info. So

here are copies of previous posts on this question.  There may be more  

in archives.

---------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:16:21 -0800
From: "Casey Morrigan" <cjmorr [at] pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Kitchen design Dishwashers

I know this has been covered before in Coho-L, so a check of the
archives is in order.

For the commercial style in which you load and reload constantly for
a short
cycle, you need enough room to deal with the racks and the dripping. And
people with good backs to heft the racks in and out. However, you can be
done with the dishes in a short time. Residential dishwashers keep
things lots simpler.

We have a commercial Bosch washer in our Common House. Big mistake (I

voted- rather, consensed - to buy it too.  D'oh!!) . It doesn't have a  

food

grinder, which most residential brands have, and it regularly gets
backed up as a result. It is also finicky and we have to wash all food
particles off
before the dishes go in or else they get distributed around and baked
on to
the dishes. It does sterilize the dishes.  But...having lived with it
for
several years, I wish we had a plain old residential washer.  Our CH
galley
kitchen is too small to handle the racks and loads from a quick-cycle
commercial washer.

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Robin A [mailto:alexande.robi [at] uwlax.edu]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 7:51 PM
To: Cohousing-L
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Kitchen design Dishwashers

Wouldn't mind seeing those myself. What about the hour long cycle
time on
the home-style vs. 3 min on the commercial? With several loads, would
take a
long time with home styles.

Robin Alexander

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:16:21 +0000
Subject: Re: [C-L]_the Dishwasher envelope please!
From: Elizabeth Stevenson <tamgoddess [at] attbi.com>
To: <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
Reply-To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org

Oh, we've talked about this many times, but I'd have to say that I  

come down

on the side of saving two grand. We've had two dishwashers for many  

years,

,and they are quiet so we can clean up during other events, something  

which

will happen with frequency. The cook team leaves the dishes in the  

machines

until the next meal, when they're put back on the buffet.

Installation of commercial will cost more, I think. Dishwashers made  

for the

home are a DIY project for the more handy amongst you.

The large commercial dishwashers aren't in any way good for your back  

and

will make anyone with the inability to lift a large heavy tray feel less
abled and less valued. I know, you only have to slide some of them. It's

still very hard on your back in the long run. Side note: we bought  

matching

Corelle dishes mostly because our eldest member couldn't lift a stack  

of our

original mismatched ones, and we saw our future.

DESIGN ACCESSABILITY INTO YOUR COMMONHOUSE!!!

Another consideration is how you want the kitchen to FEEL. We have  

always

maintained that we wanted it like a home and not a commercial kitchen.
everyone who has ever toured out place, including several from built
communities, has said that we did a good job on that score.

I hate commercial dishwashers, and I think that the communities that  

have

them defend them because it would be too psychically damaging to admit  

they

wasted all that money for a big loud eyesore. Don't bother whining to me

about expressing that opinion, anyone. That's my story and I'm  

stickin' with

it.

--
Liz "The Opinionated" Stevenson
Southside Park Cohousing
Sacramento, California
tamgoddess [at] attbi.com
From: "Rob Sandelin" <floriferous [at] msn.com>
Subject: RE: [C-L]_Dishwasher
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:08:21 -070

At Sharingwood if there was one thing I could change about our kitchen  

it would be the below counter dishwasher. It requires lifting heavy,  

wet trays in and out. A counter level dishwasher all you do is slide  

the trays in, the water does not drip all over the floor and your  

front side and you don't have to lift anything.

The best setup I ever personally used was at a state park  

environmental learning center which had a 90 degree sheet metal  

counter. The dishwasher was one tray width to the left of the corner.  

The dirty dishes came in on one side, then the clean ones went through  

the machine, you pushed them around the corner and the racks  were  

then ready to be offloaded in the exact place where the dish pickup  

happened.

000200000763000006E675D,

If you are just planning a kitchen play a game called follow the  

dishes.  Make a diagram of where the dishes to in your flow. They  

start somewhere,  people pick them up, put food on them, take them to  

tables, take them to tcleaning area, etc. The closer this flow can be  

to a loop, the easier it  will be.

Rob Sandelin
________________________________________

From: JoycePlath [at] aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:37:04 EDT
Subject: Re: [C-L]_Dishwasher

Marsh Commons dinners seat between twenty and thirty folks.  We  

started out with just one residential dishwasher.  Recently we added a  

second dishwasher  and a second deep sink for washing pots.  The first  

sink on a different counter has one deep side and a regular eight inch  

side.  Our kitchen looks  residential in style (not rated as a  

commercial kitchen) and is open to

dining.  We picked quiet dishwashers and sometimes do not run them  

until the end of socializing.  The cooks for the next meal unload the  

clean dishes and  part of their responsibilities.

The description of all this heavy lifting of wet dishes makes me think  

that

we have a good solution for up to say forty diners
Joyce Plath
____________

Most communities go big and commercial, it seems; maybe in the overall  

long  run there are advantages. But it certainly isn't the only way to  

go. So do give it some thought before you leap in.

By the way, we also went the same route for cook stoves (two regular  

residential ones, side by side, which gives us eight burners, a  

griddle and two ovens) and a home-style dishwasher, though we paid a  

bit extra for a quiet one. There are gripes about both -- big pots  

don't fit on the stove very well and the dishwasher takes a long time.  

But I'm still not convinced that the massive extra expense of fancy  

commercial stuff would have been somuch better. Especially those super- 

fast dishwashers. They're very noisy.

000200000C0800000E43C02,David Mandel, Southside Park, Sacramento Thu,  

16 Jan 1997 10:38:41 -0600

Ann Barbarow (abarbaro [at] wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us)

At Muir Commons we went pretty much all commercial on kitchen  

appliances for the Common House, and while I won't join the fray on  

refridgerators (our commercial sized one is in the pantry, so the  

nominal noise isn't a problem), but I will say, I wouldn't trade our  

commercial dishwasher for any residential dishwasher. Ours cleans tons  

of dishes in about 3 minutes and takes things of just about any size.  

Noise doesn't seem to be a problem, for the short time it is running  

there is the activity of other kitchen clean-up going on so it just  

blends in with the general hustle-bustle. Our stove was given to us by  

a restaurant that was moving, but the oven proved to beinadequate and  

unreliable, so we put in a residential sized double oven.

The tables and chairs really don't matter much. People will pretty  

much either hang out or not depending upon the atmosphere created by  

the people, not the furnishings. I have had group meals on tables made  

of plywood, and group  meals with very fine furniture. It didn't make  

a whit of difference in the  meal experience. If you can get people to  

hang around and talk after dinners, then you are  doing well. If  

everybody eats and leaves immediately you might want to examine  it  

closer. Used cast off chairs and tables work fine unless your goal is  

to be in Sunset magazine.

I read somewhere by some architect that a group should budget $40,000  

for  commonhouse furnishings. Totally unnecessary. Remember, with  

luck, you will be together as a group for decades and each years  

budget can include capital  expenditures. So every year budget to buy  

15 stackable chairs. Stackable

chairs are handy when you want to mop the floor. Remember, you will  

need  someone that is willing to fix broken chairs and a place to keep  

them while they are out of circulation.

When you get around to buying plates try to get light ones. Again, you  

can buy

15 plates a year for 3 years and slowly replace the hand me downs.  

Heavy china

wear stuff makes a heavy, back hurting load in the dish rack. Of  

course you

have an above counter dishwasher that the racks just slide into right?  

Under

the counter dish washers are the stupidest things - drip water all  

over, have

to lift at awkward angles to get loaded trays of plates in and out.  

Counter

top units you just slide the trays in, slide them out on the other  

slide.

____________________________

From: "Kay Argyle" <argyle [at] mines.utah.edu> Subject: Re: [C-L]_Dishwasher
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:24:32 -0600

We've got a Hobart and wouldn't part with it.  It does plates,  

glasses, flatware, pans, cutting boards, wood salad bowls, knives, the  

compost bucket, the sponges, the floor registers ... everything but  

disposable cups (they sag).

If the cook turns it on when the meal starts, it's ready to go by the  

time the first dishes come into the kitchen.  The cycle is 90 seconds,  

and we probably run a dozen loads on a common meal night (about 20  

people on average).

00020000066D00001A45667,

We've had it three years.  I believe it has needed repair once, I  

don't remember what for.  One of the dish racks melted when somebody  

set it on a hot burner -- we don't have enough counter space, so the  

stove gets used.  Our water has a pretty high mineral content, and the  

high temperatures (190F rinse) result in a fairly heavy lime build-up,  

which needs to be taken off every month or so to keep the rotors from  

clogging.

Kay Wasatch Commons Salt Lake City, Utah argyle [at] mines.utah.edu
*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

My opinion only, but we have a big commercial washer of some kind. It  

only does dishes, glasses, and cutlery that fit into the trays. It  

doesn't do pans or odds and ends. And has to be turned on an hour  

before hand to heat the water.

This seems fine for really big meals but I miss having a normal  

dishwasher in the kitchen that can be used to do all the odds and ends  

that pile up during the week or after a potluck using mostly  

disposables or pizza using paper towels.

It is the one thing I would add to our kitchen -- a "real" dishwasher.  

As it is things either build up or are washed by hand. Washing glasses  

and cutlery by hand in a group situation is just not a good idea ---  

and no one adds Clorox to the rinse water.

Sharon
--
Sharon Villine Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC 
http://www.takomavillage.org
--__--__--
Subject: Re: [C-L]_Dishwasher
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:19:40 -0400

I live in the same community w/ Sharon and I agree w/ her assessment  

that a "normal" dishwasher in the kitchen would be a big benefit in  

helping keep the counters and sinks clean and clear.

000200000542000020AC53C,Ann Zabaldo
Takoma Village Cohousing Washington, DC. -- America's Hometown! 77zabaldo [at] 
earthlink.net

___________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:52:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [C-L]_Dishwasher
From: Elizabeth Stevenson <tamgoddess [at] attbi.com>

Hallelujah. I thought I was the lone voice in the wilderness, Joyce.  

Your

kitchen is exactly like ours. We also let the next cooks empty the

dishwashers. Everyone who tours our kitchen loves it and it's non- 

commercial

feel. Other cohousers are often envious.

And nobody even acknowledged the disability issue I brought up. I guess
you're all going to be able-bodied forever. Good luck with that...

Liz Stevenson
Southside Park Cohousing
Sacramento, California
tamgoddess [at] attbi.com

We are 32 units and have been living here almost a year. We started  

out with 1 common meal a week and now do 2. We have a Hobart. It's  

pretty amazing, but it's not perfect.

- For one thing, it IS an under-the-counter machine. I can understand  

Rob's

opinions on the subject.

- It does each load in around 3 minutes. I think its main cleaning  

power is

chemical, along with very hot water (temp reading shows somewhere  

around 125

degrees F). It sterilizes more than really washing. It has hoses that

automatically pull measured amounts from 3 large bottles of stuff,  

which we

000200000640000025E863A,

have to keep supplied. Since our kitchen was designed with this  

dishwasher

in mind, we have a small place built into the cabinets for this  

purpose. It

was very attractive to kids, of course, so we had to childproof it  

really

well.

- You don't have to totally remove every speck of everything from dishes

when you load them, but it will sometimes turn out "clean" dishes with  

dried

food on them. No real scrubbing/pressurized water-squirting to get  

food off

dishes.

- Yes, they are expensive! One thing we found out is that Hobart won't  

honor the warranty unless a Hobart person installs it, so watch out  

for that. We haven't had to get any repairs done yet, so I don't know  

how expensive they are to fix.

All that said, my home dishwasher doesn't always do a perfect job of  

cleaning either. The Hobart works pretty well. Big advantages in being  

very fast; disadvantages include noise. Our kitchen is open to the  

great room. I think we can have a meeting while the machine is  

running, but it might be hard for some people to hear over it. Since  

it's fast, though, that doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Sheryl Faria  Pleasant Hill Cohousing (eastern San Francisco Bay Area)
____________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:52:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [C-L]_Dishwasher
From: Elizabeth Stevenson <tamgoddess [at] attbi.com>

Hallelujah. I thought I was the lone voice in the wilderness, Joyce.  

Your

kitchen is exactly like ours. We also let the next cooks empty the

dishwashers. Everyone who tours our kitchen loves it and it's non- 

commercial

000200000C5E00002C22C58,feel. Other cohousers are often envious.

And nobody even acknowledged the disability issue I brought up. I guess
you're all going to be able-bodied forever. Good luck with that...

--
Liz Stevenson
Southside Park Cohousing
Sacramento, California
tamgoddess [at] attbi.com >>

> David Mandel  Southside Park

> We don't have a commercial dishwasher. Couldn't afford it back  

then. And

> from what I've heard and seen elsewhere, I think I'm glad. At first
> thought the idea of 2.5-minute cycles sounds exciting, but then it
> doesn't hold much, so you're loading, waiting 2.5 minutes, unloading,
> loading. .... etc. Seems kind of disruptive to get engaged in other
> tasks that you'll then have to keep interrupting.
>

What David writes here makes sense to me, especially for a small  

community.

What I'm curious about is this: Joani, you live at Doyle Street, which  

has a

home-style dishwasher and 12 units, right? Are you dissatisfied with the
home-style dishwasher? Or is it that Old Oakland has lots more units and
therefore lots more dishes? I'm interested to know.

Thanks, Denise Meier Two Acre Wood

Where we've been on-site for 4 months and still don't have a  

dishwasher at

all; everyone brings dishes from home and takes them back home to wash  

them.

One member suggests that be our permanent method! does anyone have any  

information about the commercial dishwashers by Chemical Methods  

Associates, such as the Energy Mizer L-1C.   I think this is a  

chemical based dishwasher, but might it have a

non-chemical setting?

How does it rate against the Jackson 24B which was spoken of highly at  

the RMCA national conference last month?

|  Debbie Behrens              debbeh [at] auto-trol.com   (303)252-2215 |
|  Highline Crossing CoHousing                        (303)457-4184 |
+--------------------------------
Another ditto to Liz:  the kitchen is open to the dining room, separated
by a tiled counter/bar with stools.  And we love our relatively quiet,

fast Hobart dishwasher which is located under that counter.  The  

cleaners

at the sink are facing the dining room, and the kitchen is fully
integrated into the dining room scene at meals.  Noise from it has never
been a problem.   Keep it connected.

coheartedly, PattyMara Tierra Nueva, cen. CA coast

Summary....

info from other co-Housing groups reflect both praise for and concerns  

with Hobart dishwasher.  Concerns are around ergonomics, ease of  

carrying especially for anyone not strong/neck/back injured/ perhaps  

more an issure for elders, but not exclusively.

One suggestion was buying lightweight plates [Corelle].

One is a similar type dishwasher which use different, easier to handle  

type of racks,

One is to elevate dishwasher, but then we'd lose counter space we hope  

to gain.

If there're no blocking concerns,  we could include this as part of  

Janet's Community  Day focused on living here as we age/are disabled.   

Would there be objection to postponing decision?  Barb McF had, as I  

understand it, planned to include working in CH kitchen as hands on  

exercise that day.

Other concern was around efficiency: dishes are sterlized but need to  

be pretty clean before going in.

Dishwasher round up	<– Date –> <– Thread –>
From: Ruth Hirsch (heidinysearthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 05:41:09 -0800 (PST)