Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: Affordability

[Tobia,Blaise (tobiabj]

The post that started this thread said some true things about the typical 
co-houser, but also said that they are “upper class.” A follow-up said that 
they are “middle class.” I think that it is important in terms of knowing who 
co-housers are, and what our society is, to say that neither of these 
characterizations is accurate. No one in the U.S. is upper class who does not 
have family wealth of $100 million, or income of $10 million per year. And, 
although we all like to think of ourselves as middle class, I doubt that anyone 
truly middle class is living in co-housing. More accurately, co-housers are 
mostly professional class - a kind of “upper” working class. Some, who are 
successfully entrepreneurial, may be at the very lower end of middle class. I 
was reminded of this reality earlier today as I walked up 57th Street in 
Manhattan, looking at the new “pencil” skyscraper residential buildings, where 
one entire floor is a single condominium apartment that has a higher monetary 
value than most cohosuing communities in their entirety.

> On Feb 18, 2023, at 5:20 PM, cohousing-l-request [at] cohousing.org wrote:
> 
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Affordability - Retention (Sharon Villines)
>   2. Re: Racial Diversity in Cohousing (Lisa Kuntz)
>   3. Diversity in cohousing (Grace Kim)
>   4. Re: Diversity in cohousing (Lisa Kuntz)
>   5. Re: Diversity in cohousing (Lisa Kuntz)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 14:22:49 -0500
> From: Sharon Villines <sharon [at] sharonvillines.com>
> To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Cc: Vicki Rottman <vicki.rottman [at] gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Affordability - Retention
> Message-ID: <4E6CFD5B-EBCA-4E7C-B548-9C8FE21BDAE8 [at] sharonvillines.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2023, at 7:54 PM, Margaret Porter <margaret.porter [at] 
>> mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> Our cohousing community was established as a condominium community in which 
>> the market-rate units are all larger, usually much larger, than the 
>> permanently-affordable units, and with significantly more amenities. In my 
>> view, this structure unnecessarily exacerbates our economic differences. The 
>> city?s restrictions on apartment amenities and resale of permanently 
>> affordable homes further highlight these economic differences.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed message on the dynamics of 
> a hybrid community. It is hard to obtain this much detail and I have been 
> long curious about how this model of market-rate and permanently-affordable 
> units is working.
> 
> After researching the field of affordable housing, considering models for 
> affordable cohousing, and studying the economics of equality and housing, I 
> have come to the conclusion that in an ownership society, like the US, that 
> the only path to equality is ownership. Along with ownership comes market 
> rates. Permanently affordable doesn?t give the homeowner the most important 
> economic advantages of homeownership ? the ability to increase wealth and to 
> keep up with the market.
> 
> One reason condominiums must keep healthy reserves and do regular maintenance 
> is that they need to preserve the value of the home-owners capital ? their 
> invested cash. Maintaining the units means keeping them up to the market 
> rate. When the unit is sold it should be in like-new condition and comparable 
> in price to similar housing.
> 
> Support for housing is best in the form of grants, interest rate cuts, or 
> downpayment subsidies which are one-time grants to give a household a step up 
> in the economy. Once that step up is complete, there should be no strings 
> attached. If there are strings, the household is still in custody ? still 
> dependent. There may be some strings that are worth that but pretending that 
> permanently affordable housing is helping people move into the mainstream 
> economy is furthering the inequity. And it isn?t fixing housing. It?s 
> temporary relief for some people for a limited period of time.
> 
> Better to build housing that can be built at the levels people can afford and 
> owned on the same basis as other housing is built and owned now. And it is 
> possible to build the $100,000 house. The only thing preventing it is zoning 
> specifically designed to prevent it and builders and financial institutions 
> who want to make more money than they can make on $100,000 houses.
> 
> I also question how far the range of houses can go in a community and still 
> have a sense of equality in a community. Having a range of sizes of houses is 
> nice because it allows people of a wider range of incomes to choose more or 
> less space. We have a 625 SF one-bedroom with a den up to a four-story 
> townhouse with a full basement. A very wide range. The range in sales price 
> is not as great as the square footage. One of our larger units just sold 
> @$447SF. The last smaller unit sold @$545 SF. Smaller units cost more per SF 
> for a variety of reasons.
> 
> I haven?t done the statistics but generally, there is little correlation 
> between the number of people living in large units vs small units. One large 
> unit has 2 adults and 3 children but others have 1 or 2. More small units 
> have 1 person but some have consistently had 2-3.
> 
> We also have a wide range of income levels. Several are living on trust funds 
> or investments and others are living on social security or are underemployed. 
> Some have chosen to live on as little as possible in order to be activists. 
> But everyone pays the same rates in condo fees. Households with more income 
> are more likely to make donations in cash or goods but that isn?t something 
> that happens regularly or that we are dependent on.
> 
> I would not say that those who live in small units are economically less 
> well-off than those who live in large units either. Smaller units are more 
> likely to have 1 income and one person living in them but there isn?t a sense 
> that those people don?t have enough money to purchase more space if they 
> wanted it.
> 
> But, we were also built with about half our residents receiving grants from a 
> city program that encouraged first-time home ownership in the city. The aid 
> ranged from paying the downpayment to low-interest mortgages or a 
> combination. The only requirement was that the owner lived in the house for 5 
> years (or paid a fine). Tax exemptions went along with some of those also. (I 
> may have some of the details switched around but basically, that was the 
> idea.)
> 
> The advantage to those who were able to work all that out is that they were 
> able to purchase homes without a downpayment and/or pay lower property taxes 
> for at least 5 years. And were able to sell at market rate and move if they 
> preferred. Everyone owned their homes on the same basis. As the first people 
> moved out, the homes sold at market prices.
> 
> The advantage was that all the homeowners increased their wealth at the same 
> rate with no limitations. And function as equals financially.
> 
> Changing zoning is a big deal and has to be done one neighborhood at a time, 
> unfortunately.
> 
> And people would have to become comfortable with homes that are smaller than 
> the average American home of 2400 SF  but still 2-3 times larger than homes 
> in the UK or Sweden.
> 
> Sharon
> ----
> Sharon Villines
> Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takomavillage.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctobiabj%40drexel.edu%7Cfc672e1368714d3a292e08db11fe5569%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C638123556292682927%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oEH0jFfu9RCTHa0RD81mBAlpVxxP4OzOOL3LToJv3fU%3D&reserved=0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 11:53:42 -0800
> From: Lisa Kuntz <lisa.kuntz [at] daybreakcohousing.org>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Racial Diversity in Cohousing
> Message-ID:
>        <CAJf2sghwzCjOHsFKSeVGg3e-aOWR6tG9xr8tvDomX1n=4kXiTA [at] 
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Sharon, I have noticed the same thing in my community!
> 
> We often overlook the diversity we already have, because we are seeking an
> ideal. We can create an ideal population in our heads, but we also have
> rich diversity within our communities, if we broaden our vision a bit.
> 
> Lisa Kuntz
> 
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 9:34 AM Sharon Villines via Cohousing-L <
> cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org> wrote:
> 
>> In my last message I said, "We would do well, I think to find ways to
>> discover the ways we are diverse. Not just ?white, middle-class, or college
>> educated.?
>> 
>> More direct is to say diversity is something we need to discover, not
>> display.
>> 
>> One group process that I learned years ago in a Unitarian Church was
>> similar to what was being done in women?s consciousness-raising groups
>> where group member share their own experiences on specific topics. These
>> were biography groups. Each week a small group would meet and describe
>> their lives at certain ages.
>> 
>> Depending on the spread of ages in the group, the span might be 3-5 years
>> or longer depending on how many weeks the group intended to meet.
>> Interestingly, the younger members had much more to say about their lives
>> in the first decades than the older members. But the older members had more
>> decades to talk about.
>> 
>> Sharon
>> ----
>> Sharon Villines
>> Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.takomavillage.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctobiabj%40drexel.edu%7Cfc672e1368714d3a292e08db11fe5569%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C638123556292682927%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=oEH0jFfu9RCTHa0RD81mBAlpVxxP4OzOOL3LToJv3fU%3D&reserved=0
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 20:38:43 +0000
> From: Grace Kim <grace [at] schemataworkshop.com>
> To: "cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org" <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
> Subject: [C-L]_ Diversity in cohousing
> Message-ID:
>        <2F6C49D6-4FB5-49A0-B115-658FFFB5C1A7 [at] schemataworkshop.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> ?We can't turn some people away in order to wait for others who meet certain 
> criteria. We have to treat everyone the same.?
> 
> If groups are truly seeking diversity/racially equity?this might be exactly 
> what you might do?turn others away in order to wait to make room for others.
> 
> Treating everyone equally is not racial equity?it is kind and human. But 
> believing that treating people the same is akin to equality or furthering 
> equity is a naive ideal.
> Because it disregards people?s lived experience, and make assumptions that 
> everyone is starting from the same level playing field. That?s why the ?pull 
> themselves up by their bootstraps? rhetoric doesn?t work- that assumes 
> everyone has boot straps, or even boots.
> 
> Sharon- your experience of people misunderstanding your history/lived 
> experience as being a black experience is their/society?s racist belief that 
> white people are always educated/better off and that black people aren?t 
> middle class and don?t have their own rich histories and cultures.
> 
> For those in cohousing who seek diversity/racial equity?I think it?s great to 
> keep these conversations going. But people have to personally examine what 
> they are comfortable with.
> 
> A good test of your personal comfort with being surrounded with people of 
> color?try to regularly attend a Black Baptist church or Asian led Buddhist 
> meditation group or LatinX catholic mass. (Or pick another non-religious 
> community group that regularly meets).
> How does it feel to be the ?other?? What do you gain from being in that 
> community? What old practices/beliefs/behaviors do you need to give up to be 
> welcomed/comfortable?
> How long does this take? Are you willing to take the time to learn? Are you 
> willing to tolerate/lean in to the discomfort?
> 
> If all this feels like unnecessary work, admit you are not ready?but don?t 
> pretend that you are woke or ready for diversity?it just confuses those 
> around you.
> Racial Inclusion/acceptance/equity is messy and hard work. There is a LOT to 
> gain from trying. But it might not be for everyone.
> 
> I?m not an expert?I?m also on this journey. But I have my lived experiences. 
> And a LOT of training that I?ve done personally and professionally and with 
> my community. Racial equity will be my life?s work, interwoven with 
> everything I do.
> 
> Grateful to all of you willing to have these conversations.
> 
> grace h. kim
> schemata workshop
> (sent via mobile messaging)
> 206.795.2470
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 14:07:09 -0800
> From: Lisa Kuntz <lisa.kuntz [at] daybreakcohousing.org>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Diversity in cohousing
> Message-ID:
>        <CAJf2sggcyPqdnFjAgB2n+UVBhRRjTr+2SKKqnh7MJFFGmiafhg [at] 
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Grace,
> I recently finished taking a Fair Housing class that was mostly for
> landlords, but got a lot of good stuff.
> 
> This is what I came away with:
> 
> *?We can't turn some people away in order to wait for others who meet
> certain criteria. We have to treat everyone the same.?*
> 
> I would like more feedback on how we can be selective and still not be
> sued! For example, we cannot tell someone who is differently abled that
> they might have a hard time keeping up with expectations for
> participation.  What we can do is give them information about participating
> on teams and workdays, so that they can decide for themselves.
> 
> How can we turn people away because they don't fit in with our criteria for
> a racially diverse community, for example?
> 
> Are we misunderstanding the Fair Housing laws?
> 
> Lisa Kuntz
> Daybreak Cohousing
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 12:38 PM Grace Kim <grace [at] schemataworkshop.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> ?We can't turn some people away in order to wait for others who meet
>> certain criteria. We have to treat everyone the same.?
>> 
>> If groups are truly seeking diversity/racially equity?this might be
>> exactly what you might do?turn others away in order to wait to make room
>> for others.
>> 
>> Treating everyone equally is not racial equity?it is kind and human. But
>> believing that treating people the same is akin to equality or furthering
>> equity is a naive ideal.
>> Because it disregards people?s lived experience, and make assumptions that
>> everyone is starting from the same level playing field. That?s why the
>> ?pull themselves up by their bootstraps? rhetoric doesn?t work- that
>> assumes everyone has boot straps, or even boots.
>> 
>> Sharon- your experience of people misunderstanding your history/lived
>> experience as being a black experience is their/society?s racist belief
>> that white people are always educated/better off and that black people
>> aren?t middle class and don?t have their own rich histories and cultures.
>> 
>> For those in cohousing who seek diversity/racial equity?I think it?s great
>> to keep these conversations going. But people have to personally examine
>> what they are comfortable with.
>> 
>> A good test of your personal comfort with being surrounded with people of
>> color?try to regularly attend a Black Baptist church or Asian led Buddhist
>> meditation group or LatinX catholic mass. (Or pick another non-religious
>> community group that regularly meets).
>> How does it feel to be the ?other?? What do you gain from being in that
>> community? What old practices/beliefs/behaviors do you need to give up to
>> be welcomed/comfortable?
>> How long does this take? Are you willing to take the time to learn? Are
>> you willing to tolerate/lean in to the discomfort?
>> 
>> If all this feels like unnecessary work, admit you are not ready?but don?t
>> pretend that you are woke or ready for diversity?it just confuses those
>> around you.
>> Racial Inclusion/acceptance/equity is messy and hard work. There is a LOT
>> to gain from trying. But it might not be for everyone.
>> 
>> I?m not an expert?I?m also on this journey. But I have my lived
>> experiences. And a LOT of training that I?ve done personally and
>> professionally and with my community. Racial equity will be my life?s work,
>> interwoven with everything I do.
>> 
>> Grateful to all of you willing to have these conversations.
>> 
>> grace h. kim
>> schemata workshop
>> (sent via mobile messaging)
>> 206.795.2470
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fl.cohousing.org%2Finfo&data=05%7C01%7Ctobiabj%40drexel.edu%7Cfc672e1368714d3a292e08db11fe5569%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C638123556292682927%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Tg%2Bk%2Fo0hxeZmh57JS4G1Ujrn%2BCdkD804bvTZBY2KXnA%3D&reserved=0
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 14:19:53 -0800
> From: Lisa Kuntz <lisa.kuntz [at] daybreakcohousing.org>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Diversity in cohousing
> Message-ID:
>        <CAJf2sgh+wh8fePVP8cJAzFv08sBStaDz3igRbNnkoMUXZ2eisQ [at] 
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Whoops, "we" (Membership Team or the seller) are required to give everyone
> exactly the same information, and the seller is in danger of being sued for
> any type of discrimination. My understanding is that the buyer can't turn
> down a reasonable or "turn someone away," just because we want
> someone different.
> 
> More feedback on waiting for the right buyers who meet criteria for
> diversity of any sort:
> 
> 
>   - In our community, we have no control over individual sellers except
>   for their good will.  We hope that they will sell to someone who is seeking
>   cohousing and understands it, rather than a buyer who is looking for a
>   condo for other reasons.
> 
> 
>   - Sometimes, sellers have a timeline during which they need to sell, so
>   they choose the most compatible buyer with a reasonable offer. They have
>   the choice of "turning away" low-ball offers, for example.
> 
> 
> Lisa Kuntz
> Daybreak Cohousing
> 
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 2:07 PM Lisa Kuntz <lisa.kuntz [at] 
> daybreakcohousing.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Grace,
>> I recently finished taking a Fair Housing class that was mostly for
>> landlords, but got a lot of good stuff.
>> 
>> This is what I came away with:
>> 
>> *?We can't turn some people away in order to wait for others who meet
>> certain criteria. We have to treat everyone the same.?*
>> 
>> I would like more feedback on how we can be selective and still not be
>> sued! For example, we cannot tell someone who is differently abled that
>> they might have a hard time keeping up with expectations for
>> participation.  What we can do is give them information about participating
>> on teams and workdays, so that they can decide for themselves.
>> 
>> How can we turn people away because they don't fit in with our criteria
>> for a racially diverse community, for example?
>> 
>> Are we misunderstanding the Fair Housing laws?
>> 
>> Lisa Kuntz
>> Daybreak Cohousing
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 12:38 PM Grace Kim <grace [at] schemataworkshop.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> ?We can't turn some people away in order to wait for others who meet
>>> certain criteria. We have to treat everyone the same.?
>>> 
>>> If groups are truly seeking diversity/racially equity?this might be
>>> exactly what you might do?turn others away in order to wait to make room
>>> for others.
>>> 
>>> Treating everyone equally is not racial equity?it is kind and human. But
>>> believing that treating people the same is akin to equality or furthering
>>> equity is a naive ideal.
>>> Because it disregards people?s lived experience, and make assumptions
>>> that everyone is starting from the same level playing field. That?s why the
>>> ?pull themselves up by their bootstraps? rhetoric doesn?t work- that
>>> assumes everyone has boot straps, or even boots.
>>> 
>>> Sharon- your experience of people misunderstanding your history/lived
>>> experience as being a black experience is their/society?s racist belief
>>> that white people are always educated/better off and that black people
>>> aren?t middle class and don?t have their own rich histories and cultures.
>>> 
>>> For those in cohousing who seek diversity/racial equity?I think it?s
>>> great to keep these conversations going. But people have to personally
>>> examine what they are comfortable with.
>>> 
>>> A good test of your personal comfort with being surrounded with people of
>>> color?try to regularly attend a Black Baptist church or Asian led Buddhist
>>> meditation group or LatinX catholic mass. (Or pick another non-religious
>>> community group that regularly meets).
>>> How does it feel to be the ?other?? What do you gain from being in that
>>> community? What old practices/beliefs/behaviors do you need to give up to
>>> be welcomed/comfortable?
>>> How long does this take? Are you willing to take the time to learn? Are
>>> you willing to tolerate/lean in to the discomfort?
>>> 
>>> If all this feels like unnecessary work, admit you are not ready?but
>>> don?t pretend that you are woke or ready for diversity?it just confuses
>>> those around you.
>>> Racial Inclusion/acceptance/equity is messy and hard work. There is a LOT
>>> to gain from trying. But it might not be for everyone.
>>> 
>>> I?m not an expert?I?m also on this journey. But I have my lived
>>> experiences. And a LOT of training that I?ve done personally and
>>> professionally and with my community. Racial equity will be my life?s work,
>>> interwoven with everything I do.
>>> 
>>> Grateful to all of you willing to have these conversations.
>>> 
>>> grace h. kim
>>> schemata workshop
>>> (sent via mobile messaging)
>>> 206.795.2470
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>>> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fl.cohousing.org%2Finfo&data=05%7C01%7Ctobiabj%40drexel.edu%7Cfc672e1368714d3a292e08db11fe5569%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C0%7C638123556292682927%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Tg%2Bk%2Fo0hxeZmh57JS4G1Ujrn%2BCdkD804bvTZBY2KXnA%3D&reserved=0
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
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