Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: unit entitlements

[Denise Tennen (denisetennen]

At Monterey Cohousing in MN we have 15 units ranging in size from approx 400 sf 
to 1500+ sf

8 of the units are in a 100 year old building and the rest are townhouses 
completed in 1996

Some of the details below are based on my best recollection of how we came up 
with our square footages in 1996. Be forewarned, brevity is not a strong suit 
of mine. Attention to detail is. 

The formula we have used since approx 1996 is 25% per unit and 75% based on 
adjusted square feet. This puts a somewhat heavier cost burden per on the 
smaller units. 

The thinking at the time was that the smaller nits would be more likely to use 
certain common spaces eg kitchen and dining room for family event ) than the 
larger units. This has proved to be true for some of the smaller units but not 
all. 

Another part of the thinking was that all units have equal access to common 
space therefore it made sense that dues at least to some extent reflect this 
equal access The 25/75 was a compromise. 

There were mathheads among us at the time who considered formulas far more 
complex with attempts at greater fairness but opted for 25/75 for simplicity 

At times we have charged for snowplowing on a per driver basis and water on a 
per person basis. When no one was willing to continue tracking those, 
everything reverted to the formula. The remaining outlier is WiFi which is per 
household but under consideration to be charged by the formula

For the units in the older building, unit square footages were adjusted to 
subtract some less usable spaces (eg kneewalls) and some were adjusted up 
because they were perceived to have a better layout/ more pleasing distribution 
of windows or to be in a more favorable location. I believe the spaces were 
measured paint to paint

Units in the original building are also allocated various storage spaces in 
that building and the community garage for which they are not charged extra. 
 

The newer units were measured to the outside of perimeter walls and centerline 
to centerline between units

The newer units have tuck under garages and small utility spaces. They are not 
charged for that space.

The 100 year old building houses just about all of our common space, a very 
small amount of  additional common space is the underground walkway that 
connects the new building to the old building 

It was calculated that 55% of the original building is common space and 45% 
private units. Expenses that relate to elements such as building envelope and 
building systems are charged 45% to all units based on the 25/75 formula to all 
15 units, and 55% just to the private units in that building, again per the 
25/75 formula 

The townhouses pay for their utilities and building envelope separately. The 
shared items (building envelope) allocated by the 25/75 formula for just the 
townhouses. Utilities are separate for each townhouse and are paid by each owner

This system is not perfect and there have been at least two efforts to 
reconsider the formulas but we could not come to consensus to change the 
original allocation

Some townhouse units converted inaccessible attic spaces to living spaces and 
because of knee walls were calculated paint to paint and the schedule of dues 
adjusted accordingly. Allocation of storage space to unit owners in the old 
building have changed over time but have not incurred changes to sf back for 
those units 

My best understanding of our cost allocation system
Denise Tennen
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 7, 2024, at 5:16 AM, cohousing-l-request [at] cohousing.org wrote:
> 
> Send Cohousing-L mailing list submissions to
>    cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    https://lists.cohousing.org/mailman/listinfo/cohousing-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    cohousing-l-request [at] cohousing.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    cohousing-l-owner [at] cohousing.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Cohousing-L digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Flooring (Amy Hartman)
>   2. California cohousers: beat the heat tomorrow with electric
>      boat rides on the Bay (Raines Cohen)
>   3. Unit Entitlements (Elizabeth Rosenau)
>   4. Re: Unit Entitlements (Main Email)
>   5. Re: Unit Entitlements (Elizabeth Rosenau)
>   6. Re: Unit Entitlements (Pare Gerou)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 08:34:12 -0500
> From: Amy Hartman <amyehart [at] juno.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Flooring
> Message-ID: <1E1C59F6-0E6B-44F6-8C46-F4B6CAEF80DD [at] juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=utf-8
> 
> I have been reading with interest the flooring thread, including different 
> perspectives about maintaining marmoleum.  I love our marmoleum and will 
> probably replace it with more marmoleum, but it has not been durable even in 
> our small home kitchen.  Installed it in 2008, and in 2024 the floor has 
> water spots and areas of shadow in areas where there is traffic, dings from 
> dropped knives, and a dull appearance.  I am not sure whether this was wrong 
> maintenance on our part or just how it wears.  The Forbo website has 
> maintenance guidance for commercial applications (floor buffer, etc), but not 
> sure how people care for this in residences.  Welcome any advice about caring 
> for marmoleum.
> 
> Amy Hartman
> San Antonio, TX
> 
>>> On Jul 5, 2024, at 6:15?PM, Sharon Villines via Cohousing-L <cohousing-l 
>>> [at] cohousing.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 21, 2024, at 5:03?PM, Dyan Wiley <dyanwiley123 [at] gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thirty years ago we  m installed a poured epoxy floor in our kitchen and
>>> two bathrooms. They are going strong 30 years later with 32 households
>>> actively using the kitchen for several meals a month plus special events,
>>> etc
>> 
>> Do people complain that the floors are too hard?
>> 
>> Sharon
>> ----
>> Sharon Villines
>> Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC
>> http://www.takomavillage.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 08:04:24 -0700
> From: Raines Cohen <rc3-coho-L [at] raines.com>
> To: Cohousing-L <cohousing-L [at] cohousing.org>
> Subject: [C-L]_ California cohousers: beat the heat tomorrow with
>    electric boat rides on the Bay
> Message-ID:
>    <CAKoqfHV19u00aaKj=EYx8vu8vdbB9Rg_oNLy9x-H124nzsANow [at] mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> (oh yeah, and also a regional gathering of folks living in community, at an
> established cohousing neighborhood in Oakland. But I thought I'd start with
> the important bit)
> 
> This weekend it will be 112 degrees Fahrenheit in Sacramento, home to
> Southside Park and the just-moved-in Washington Commons next-door in West
> Sacramento, and even warmer at to mention nearby Fair Oaks Ecohousing.
> 
> 109 in Davis, home to the first US new-build cohousing (Muir Commons), the
> first retrofit cohousing (N Street), and the first senior cohousing
> (Glacier Circle)
> 106 in Nevada City, home to a lovely cohousing community.
> 107 next-door in Grass Valley, with its own Senior Cohousing
> 115 in Chico, home of Valley Oaks Village
> 115 also in Fresno, where La Querencia cohousers live
> In the 90s in the North Bay, home to several communities
> 
> But at the shore in Oakland by Alameda it will be just 69-72 out, up to 46
> degrees cooler!
> 
> Imagine hanging out outdoors without working up a sweat. Being able to
> enjoy the day without air conditioning. Visiting the beach and views of San
> Francisco and the Golden Gate Bridge.
> 
> And also meeting other area cohousers and comparing notes about living in
> community.
> 
> And getting a nice community-made lunch. And bagels and a community tour if
> you arrive early.
> And then a 2-hour electric boat ride on the Bay ($20 an hour, the rest is
> all free).
> 
> Want to come on down? Bring the family and carpool with some neighbors.
> 
> RSVP via East Bay Cohousing:
> https://www.ebcoho.org/calicoho_july_2024
> 
> See you Sunday!
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 14:55:28 -0700
> From: Elizabeth Rosenau <ejrosenau [at] gmail.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: [C-L]_ Unit Entitlements
> Message-ID: <14AB666B-B4CE-49EF-B5CA-CDA1516B3680 [at] gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Hello!!
> 
> I?m part of a Canadian community called Compass Cohousing that?s planning to 
> starting building soon.  We are looking to engage realtors and this has 
> brought up the subject of ?unit entitlements? as a component of setting our 
> monthly Strata fees.  (I believe our Strata fees may be analogous to HOA fees 
> in the USA.)
> 
> Right now we are using the square footage of each unit to calculate those 
> fees.  We realize that square footage alone is not the ideal way forward 
> because it doesn?t take into consideration the expense of operating common 
> facilities which we assume will be used by residents of all unit sizes.
> 
> Here are my questions:  What was your community?s experience deciding how to 
> calculate unit entitlements?  Has your community been satisfied with the way 
> the entitlements work or have there been struggles or pushback?  Is it easy 
> to change unit entitlements after occupancy?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any wisdom you may have to share.
> 
> Elizabeth Rosenau,  Compass Cohousing.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 19:15:03 -0400
> From: Main Email <zabaldo [at] earthlink.net>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Unit Entitlements
> Message-ID: <37EE7407-520B-47B4-B811-919F3BE0FF37 [at] earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Hello Elizabeth and all Cohousers near and far ? ?
> 
> First, congratulations on your soon to be the building or construction phase 
> of your timeline. It?s a very exciting time to see the money, time, and 
> effort you put in come together and create a product you will soon call 
> ?home.?
> 
> How HOA dues ? ? for you called Strada ? ? are calculated, is a subject near 
> and dear to my heart.
> 
> But before I leave an opinion, I need the definition of what a ?unit 
> entitlement? is.
> 
> I look forward to hearing other people?s information and to writing about our 
> own here at
> Takoma village in Washington DC.
> 
> Again, many congratulations to everyone in your community. Maybe I can come 
> see it someday. Where did you say it is located? Did I miss that?
> 
> Ann Zabaldo
> Washington DC
> Sent from my iPhone
> All tiipos ... curtesy of Siri  :-)
> 
>> On Jul 6, 2024, at 5:55?PM, Elizabeth Rosenau <ejrosenau [at] gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Hello!!
>> 
>> I?m part of a Canadian community called Compass Cohousing that?s planning to 
>> starting building soon.  We are looking to engage realtors and this has 
>> brought up the subject of ?unit entitlements? as a component of setting our 
>> monthly Strata fees.  (I believe our Strata fees may be analogous to HOA 
>> fees in the USA.)
>> 
>> Right now we are using the square footage of each unit to calculate those 
>> fees.  We realize that square footage alone is not the ideal way forward 
>> because it doesn?t take into consideration the expense of operating common 
>> facilities which we assume will be used by residents of all unit sizes.
>> 
>> Here are my questions:  What was your community?s experience deciding how to 
>> calculate unit entitlements?  Has your community been satisfied with the way 
>> the entitlements work or have there been struggles or pushback?  Is it easy 
>> to change unit entitlements after occupancy?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for any wisdom you may have to share.
>> 
>> Elizabeth Rosenau,  Compass Cohousing.
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2024 18:04:48 -0700
> From: Elizabeth Rosenau <ejrosenau [at] gmail.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Unit Entitlements
> Message-ID: <49C6834C-9022-4805-B73D-33A2C24C21B3 [at] gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Hi Ann,
> 
> It is an exciting time for us.  The property we own is within the Township of 
> Langley, which is in British Columbia quite close to Vancouver.
> 
> I found the definition of ?unit entitlement? in the Real Estate Disclosure we 
> hope to file soon.  Here goes:
> 
> ?The Unit Entitlement of each Strata Lot is a figure indicating its share in 
> the Common Property and assets of the Development and by which its 
> contribution to the expenses of the Common Property is determined.?
> 
> I look forward to hearing what you have to say about this topic, so near and 
> dead to your heart.  I?m tickled to have received a response so quickly on a 
> topic many people might find mundane.
> 
> With warmth,
> 
> Elizabeth Rosenau, Compass Cohousing, Langley, BC, Canada
> 
>> On Jul 6, 2024, at 4:15?PM, Main Email <zabaldo [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Hello Elizabeth and all Cohousers near and far ? ?
>> 
>> First, congratulations on your soon to be the building or construction phase 
>> of your timeline. It?s a very exciting time to see the money, time, and 
>> effort you put in come together and create a product you will soon call 
>> ?home.?
>> 
>> How HOA dues ? ? for you called Strada ? ? are calculated, is a subject near 
>> and dear to my heart.
>> 
>> But before I leave an opinion, I need the definition of what a ?unit 
>> entitlement? is.
>> 
>> I look forward to hearing other people?s information and to writing about 
>> our own here at
>> Takoma village in Washington DC.
>> 
>> Again, many congratulations to everyone in your community. Maybe I can come 
>> see it someday. Where did you say it is located? Did I miss that?
>> 
>> Ann Zabaldo
>> Washington DC
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> All tiipos ... curtesy of Siri  :-)
>> 
>>>> On Jul 6, 2024, at 5:55?PM, Elizabeth Rosenau <ejrosenau [at] gmail.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?Hello!!
>>> 
>>> I?m part of a Canadian community called Compass Cohousing that?s planning 
>>> to starting building soon.  We are looking to engage realtors and this has 
>>> brought up the subject of ?unit entitlements? as a component of setting our 
>>> monthly Strata fees.  (I believe our Strata fees may be analogous to HOA 
>>> fees in the USA.)
>>> 
>>> Right now we are using the square footage of each unit to calculate those 
>>> fees.  We realize that square footage alone is not the ideal way forward 
>>> because it doesn?t take into consideration the expense of operating common 
>>> facilities which we assume will be used by residents of all unit sizes.
>>> 
>>> Here are my questions:  What was your community?s experience deciding how 
>>> to calculate unit entitlements?  Has your community been satisfied with the 
>>> way the entitlements work or have there been struggles or pushback?  Is it 
>>> easy to change unit entitlements after occupancy?
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance for any wisdom you may have to share.
>>> 
>>> Elizabeth Rosenau,  Compass Cohousing.
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2024 12:37:20 +0300
> From: Pare Gerou <paregerou [at] gmail.com>
> To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Unit Entitlements
> Message-ID:
>    <CAP+GJ3jrb6qeso9O_XMHdy9aJgDRCwin0OqLqUZ=sqN1qCKsow [at] mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Congratulations!
> 
> Congratulations on your progress!    Ann Zabaldo and several others have
> posted some excellent HOA fee calculations options and analysis in the
> archives.
> However, you might consider some group intentional legal design work before
> you take in her analysis-- because you would be glossing over lots of
> hidden assumptions and would be creating future problems by adding one
> misaligned legal feature on top of another.
> 
>> From the little I can glean from the few line disclosure,  it sounds like
> your group might have chosen to legally design the community using a
> "Strata Corporate" structure and Strata lot ownership legal design-  The
> (strata) and percentage ownership of the common buildings (entitlement).
> 
> For what it?s worth, the legal design of the community can significantly
> impact its social cohesion, almost as much as the architectural design.
> Combining misaligned legal features can create complexities that entangle
> the community.
> 
> Currently, it seems your underlying assumption, as reflected in your
> disclosure (and thus likely in your Bylaws and/or in your Articles of
> Org.), is that your monthly costs assessed to households must be tied to
> the shares/percentage ownership.  Tying this legal knot affects not only
> monthly costs assessed but taxes and governance as well.
> 
> Given the complexities involved, it?s important to consider Canadian law
> and regulations pertaining to Homeowner Associations (HOAs) and strata
> corporations.  But more important than that, it is important to start with
> your detailed vision and values concerning governance and cost sharing and
> then work from the ground up to alter your legal design to better align.
> Making the changes at the foundational level will mean you can take on
> Ann's analysis without getting tripped up in a host of other unintentional
> legal design.
> 
> Over the years, I've been following all of the knots communities tie
> themselves into legally without proper legal design workshops, and it
> almost feels to me like learned helplessness in doing such a great job of
> architectural design but not so much with legal design.  All people need is
> being taken step by step through a legal design process just as they were
> with architectural design, identifying the places of poor construction, and
> knowing how to build a new legal house.  Even for nonlawyers, It is not
> that much harder really than designing a Common House.
> 
> I've been gathering some materials over the years and would be up to trying
> a "beta" test workshop with a small group if they wanted to more
> comprehensively tackle a few of the foundational legal design issues and
> set their legal house in order.  Perhaps I'll reach out to Ann and the
> others who've taken on portions of this problem over the years adn team up
> so you can have a better experience and so groups will not feel so at sea.
> Let me know if this interests you.
> 
> Pare Gerou
> paregerou [at] gmail.com
> 
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:56?AM Elizabeth Rosenau <ejrosenau [at] gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hello!!
>> 
>> I?m part of a Canadian community called Compass Cohousing that?s planning
>> to starting building soon.  We are looking to engage realtors and this has
>> brought up the subject of ?unit entitlements? as a component of setting our
>> monthly Strata fees.  (I believe our Strata fees may be analogous to HOA
>> fees in the USA.)
>> 
>> Right now we are using the square footage of each unit to calculate those
>> fees.  We realize that square footage alone is not the ideal way forward
>> because it doesn?t take into consideration the expense of operating common
>> facilities which we assume will be used by residents of all unit sizes.
>> 
>> Here are my questions:  What was your community?s experience deciding how
>> to calculate unit entitlements?  Has your community been satisfied with the
>> way the entitlements work or have there been struggles or pushback?  Is it
>> easy to change unit entitlements after occupancy?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for any wisdom you may have to share.
>> 
>> Elizabeth Rosenau,  Compass Cohousing.
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
>> http://L.cohousing.org/info
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
> http://L.cohousing.org/info
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Cohousing-L Digest, Vol 246, Issue 7
> *******************************************