Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: Exit Signs and Other Ugly Things

[Bryan Bowen (bryan]

I'll offer a point or two.

Exit signage is required by building code, IBC/IFC in most jurisdictions.
The location and characteristics (brightness, size, etc) of the signage are
also specified.  The signs are designed to meet these regs, and there isn't
a lot of wiggle room.  That said, the local building official or fire
marshal may be willing to accept an alternative.  Exit signage is usually on
a separate circuit with emergency backup.  You might also have to provide
emergency lighting.  Anyway, egress lighting (not necessarily fire sprinkler
plans, that's a different story) is part of the architect's scope of work
and should be in their drawings (or those of their electrical engineer) and
shouldn't require any decision making from the community.  

I usually specify the most innocuous LED signs available.  Just shop around
and see what you like, and ask the GC or architect or electrical engineer
for options.  Generally, I just try to make it all as unobtrusive as
possible.  

And, regarding the discussion about coordination of systems below:  Ideally,
the architects and the rest of the design team should be involved from start
to finish, including construction.  Often, the fire sprinkling systems are
designed by the GC's subcontractor, and in that case the work is not
performed until after the construction documents are complete.  The
customary practice in this approach is for the GC, architect, mechanical and
structural engineer to review the proposed fire sprinkler design for
conflicts with their work (ducts, beams, soffits, etc).  This should work
just fine, although occasionally there are trickier issues to solve than
there would be if the fire sprinkler design was completed before the CDs are
permitting and bid.   If the architects and design team are not involved
with construction, usually this stuff is missed or done without good
consideration.  Not bashing GC's, I simply mean that well have different
expertise we bring together to create a good outcome.  

As to a few of Tom Loft's comments about what architects draw:  there's
certainly some truth to what you say.  Full coordination of all visible
objects (switches, outlets, etc) can lead to more errors that clarity, so
they often are "drawn once and drawn right" on the relevant engineers
sheets.  That said, we do copy a lot of critical information to our drawings
to be sure it's fully coordinated.  I'm pretty surprised that you've had a
hard time getting architects to show downspouts, meter locations,
transformer pads, etc.  We show them on our drawings for coordination
purposes.  Some things like the phone pedestals are field located by
utilities, so we can't draw them in advance.  What I'm saying, I suppose, is
that there is a family of stuff we show, an a family of stuff we don't show,
and we try to make sure there is sound logic to both.  I know not everyone
does that, but I do think it's good practice.  

And the last point:  there is a very common disconnect between MEP drawings
and the field installation...the MEP drawings are often schematic and
simplified, but they should be coordinated such that no surprises happen.
There are some good reasons for that, but a good design team plus a good GC
and on site team will give you the best results you can find...not
perfection....

-b




bryan bowen architects, p.c.
1510 ZAMIA AVENUE #103   -  BOULDER, CO  80304  -   (303)443-3629
www.bryanbowenarchitects.com


-----Original Message-----
From: cohousing-l-bounces+bryan=bryanbowenarchitects.com [at] cohousing.org
[mailto:cohousing-l-bounces+bryan=bryanbowenarchitects.com [at] cohousing.org] 
On
Behalf Of Oz
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 2:46 PM
To: Cohousing-L
Subject: Re: [C-L]_ Exit Signs and Other Ugly Things


There must be an architect or other professional here that can speak to the
relevant regulatory issues - perhaps in the Universal Building Code?

Oz
ozragland.com

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Joanie Connors <jvcphd [at] gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Some years ago I saw an exit sign made of colored neon tubing. It was 
> a pleasant looking rosy red glowing "exit" in cursive. I googled this, 
> but could not find one in several pages of images, so perhaps they are 
> not accepted now.
>
> You might call a neon sign business and see what they would cost.
>
> Assuming this would be too costly, you might call a graphic artist and 
> see what they would charge for custom signs.
>
> Or even cheaper, an inventive person with a laptop could try different 
> fonts to find an effect you like and have them printed and laminated.
>
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Sharon Villines 
> <sharon [at] sharonvillines.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 11 Mar 2012, at 7:06 AM, R Philip Dowds wrote:
> >
> >> Not quite sure what actually happened here, but in general the 
> >> "systems
> people" do not really come in after the architects are "finished".  In 
> terms of both design logic and construction sequence, a building is an 
> integrated assembly, and .
> >
> > You know that and I know that, but..
> >
> > For developing communities, this is one of the reasons you want to
> limit/eliminate customization. The whole process is so complex and so 
> many different people are involved that you don't want to do anything 
> to make it more complex.
> >
> >> Did you put the design out for competitive bid ... and then take 
> >> the
> low bidder?
> >
> > We had a developer. We had a Design Team. The architect blamed the
> construction contractor and the construction contract blamed the
architect.
> The developer was new to cohousing and subsequently has developed 
> other communities more successfully in terms of the structural stuff.
> >
> > One thing that might be helpful to new communities - the process of
> advising back and forth on new technologies and new ways of doing 
> things can throw everyone off base because each one can trust that the 
> other one knows what they are doing. People accept new ideas that they 
> can't themselves confirm, but the fact that they are accepted feels 
> like confirmation. It's a hard process to do something sort of new but 
> not exactly.
> >
> >> \Exit signs are not optional, they are required by the egress and 
> >> life
> safety codes.  Some signs are more elegant than others.
> >
> > What I'm looking for are the "more elegant" ones. What is exactly
> required? Everyone seems to be showing exactly the same signs. Is the 
> standard height and width required everywhere?
> >
> >> * At Cornerstone, client/architect disputes forced the founders to
> change architects in mid-stream.  And extreme litigation and 
> permitting expenses swallowed up a lot of money, compelling design 
> compromises and selection of a low-bidder contractor.  There were
consequences.
> >
> > This sank a community in Florida. The architect came in 2 years late
> with designs that were woefully wrong, just wrong. Doors that couldn't 
> be opened because there were walls on the other side was the the 
> worst. Then the engineers looked at it and said it would cost billions 
> to construct because it would require steel beams - in a two story 
> structure because he had specified hurricane-proof blocks to be used 
> to make cupolas on top of the buildings Victorian Key West style.
> >
> > The architect wanted another $20,000 or something like that to fix 
> > the
> plans. Which would mean more engineering costs.
> >
> > GOOD ADVICE from Gilda Iriarte who used to do the financial stuff 
> > for
> the Cohousing Company. Ask bankers for referrals to architects, 
> developers, etc. Because they are on the money end of things and see 
> projects succeed and fail everyday, they know who consistently brings 
> in projects on time and within budget. Interview bankers.
> >
> > Sharon
> > ----
> > Sharon Villines
> > Takoma Village Cohousing, Washington DC http://www.takomavillage.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Cohousing-L mailing list -- Unsubscribe, archives and other info at:
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> >
> >
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