Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: Emotions and wildlife

[Norman Gauss (normangauss]

Jan:

      When you refer to invertebrates, you are looking only at insects,
spiders, land crabs, etc.  Most of the larger creatures warranting
protection are vertebrates. These include birds, frogs, snakes, salamanders,
bony fish, and bats, in addition to such macro animals as kangaroos, emus,
crocodiles, etc.  Here in the U.S. emphasis on invertebrate protection has
focused primariy on butterflies and perhaps a few colorful moths.  For the
most part, invertebrates are seem as needing control rather than protection.

Norm Gauss


----- Original Message -----
From: "Forbes Jan" <jan.forbes [at] dhhs.tas.gov.au>
To: <cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: [C-L]_Emotions and wildlife


> Norman
>
> I doubt we have a major difference of opinion on the importance of
> protecting wildlife.  However we probably have a difference in cultural
> attitudes that contributes to miscommunication. Also, it's possible you've
> not read what I said earlier.
>
> Like Brian, you emphase the negative aspect of human emotions.  What I
said
> in response to him goes for you too.
>
> Since you don't know me personally and have only a small sample of my
> thinking on this issue, I believe you and also Brian, in seemingly
opposing
> what I say, are to some extent engaging in the shadow boxing I referred to
> earlier.
>
> This being so, I choose not to take your comments personally nor do I feel
> the need to refute in detail the incorrect assumptions you've made about
my
> thinking on this complex issue.  As someone on another list said, the
issue
> of pets (add emotions, wildlife) is far too complex to discuss via e-mail.
>
>
> Jan
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Norman Gauss [SMTP:normangauss [at] mediaone.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 4 September 2001 16:48
> > To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> > Subject: Re: [C-L]_Emotions and wildlife
> >
> > Hi Jan in Australia:
> >
> >    Here is a rebuttal to some of your points on emotions and wildlife
that
> > were directed to Rob Sandelin.
> >
> > > Pet owners and parents may be emotional and therefore in your opinion
> > > irrational, but what sort of a world would we have if people were
> > motivated
> > > entirely by reason?  In fact, would that be enough to motivate them?
> > And
> > > without feelings could you say they were truly human?  Would we even
> > have
> > > community if people were not influenced by their emotions?
> >
> >     Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini were motivated entirely by emotions.
> > Were
> > they human in the sense you mean?
> >
> >      The important point is to not let emotions blind you to reason.
> > Given
> > sound assumptions and good information, the exercise of reason will give
> > better results over the long run than blind adherence to emotional
goals.
> > The end result for the entire community and what it wants to achieve is
> > what
> > counts. This takes precedence over individuals quest to satisfy their
> > emotional needs.
> >
> >      There are non-emotional factors that motivate people to live in
> > cohousing communities.  Living in a community has many practical
> > advantages
> > not connected to emotions, and I, for one, am not drawn to cohousing
> > communities primarily because of the emotional element.
> >
> > >
> > > The same goes for the other side of the debate.  When people fight to
> > > protect wildlife they are primarily motivated by feelings not reason,
> > which
> > > is why for example here in Australia there's not much trouble finding
> > > supporters for the fight to save cuddly koalas, not so easy for the
> > other
> > > 99%, the invertebrates.
> >
> >
> > The protection of wildlife is not primarily motivated by feelings.  I
> > admit
> > that a focus on one species to the exclusion of all the others in the
> > natural community is motivated by emotion.  Thus in the United States,
the
> > emotional focus to protect deer at the expense of the habitat that
> > supports
> > deer leads to overbrowsing and starvation of the deer.
> >
> > A healthy ecosystem focusing on sustainability with a maximum of species
> > diversity is the goal of most nature lovers.  This is based on the many
> > studies of natural ecosystems that have been performed during the last
75
> > years.  Thus reason tells us that excess predation will eliminate many
> > desirable species that are good for the ecosystem.  Emotion has nothing
to
> > do with it.  Any community that permits cats to dominate the predation
of
> > small creatures is blinded by their emotional attachment to cats at the
> > expense of the other creatures in their surroundings.
> >
> > Norman Gauss
> > OakCreekCommons [at] yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jan
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Rob Sandelin [SMTP:floriferous [at] msn.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 4 September 2001 15:23
> > > > To: cohousing-l [at] cohousing.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [C-L]_Cats. Wow!
> > > >
> > > > Let me put on my  group facilitator hat here: Just to belabor the
> > obvious,
> > > > Pets are a major conflict issue in pretty much every community. They
> > rank
> > > > right up there in conflict issues with kids, work, food and
> > relationships.
> > > >
> > > > I have seen an interesting pattern in many communities I have
visited,
> > > > especially cohousing groups. The conversation goes like this:
> > > >
> > > > Pet Owner: We don't have any problems with pets.
> > > > Non-Pet Owner: Our biggest undealt with problem is pets.
> > > >
> > > > I have worked with groups dealing with pets and kids and both bring
up
> > > > similar emotional attachment blocks for many people. They can talk
> > about
> > > > lots of things, but as soon as you bring up a subject where they
have
> > a
> > > > strong emotional attachment (pet/child) they lose the ability to
> > maintain
> > > > any sort of subjectivity and rationality. It is common that
> > emotionally
> > > > attached people take any general criticism of pets/children
personally
> > and
> > > > often respond with the defensive methods they characteristically
use.
> > > >
> > > > In my experience, when dealing with either kids or pets it might be
a
> > good
> > > > approach to work on abstract goals first. What do we want to
> > accomplish?
> > > > Then, once you have a set of goals, you can work towards specifics
of
> > > > accomplishing them.
> > > >
> > > > It is pretty common to find cohousing groups that espouse
> > environmental
> > > > goals which then do nothing to regulate the carnage on local
wildlife
> > done
> > > > by the pets. Constraining pets is simply too hard for most groups to
> > work
> > > > out.
> > > >
> > > > Now I put on my naturalist  hat:
> > > >
> > > > Cats in natural systems are super predators, their population is not
> > in
> > > > anyway linked to the prey populations. In a natural system the
> > population
> > > > of
> > > > the predators is directly linked to the population of the prey. When
> > the
> > > > prey drops to a low point, it causes the predators to die or move
on,
> > > > leaving a small remnant prey population to then rebuild its numbers.
> > Super
> > > > predators keep feeding on the prey base until it is locally extinct,
> > > > because
> > > > they do not rely on the prey for survival. There are over 200
studies
> > now
> > > > of
> > > > cat predation effects from all over America, and there is a good
> > abstract
> > > > of
> > > > this research available from the Audubon society. It used to be on
> > their
> > > > website.
> > > >
> > > > Rob Sandelin
> > > > Ex-facilitation trainer
> > > > Natural history teacher
> > > >
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