Cohousing-L Mailing List: Re: Re: Children (in cohousing and elsewhere)

[racheli (racheli]

Hi Roger,
I'm hesitating to what extent it's "ok" to continue the 
discussion regarding children, since it might be seen
as sliding into the OT region...

So, I'll just make very short comments:
Talking about the kibbutz wasn't in order to promote,
necessarily the model.  It was just in order to point out
that "noise is bad" is a cultural construct, not a law
of nature.  
My main point in it all (which I don't think I've stated very
successfully) is that when one wishes to solve a problem, the needs of
everyone involved should be taken into account.
This should include the needs of children.  
I agree, for example, that attempting to minimize the level
of noise during a common meal is highly desirable. On the
other hand, if kids are present, people should expect to
have more noise than if kids weren't there.  I'm suggesting
a certain give and take, just like one does (hopefully)
with adults.
[I didn't say, BTW, that there shouldn't be any rules for
children, something with some people seem to attribute
to me]... - This might be in part because I don't feel that
this is the right place to get into these issues in detail,
and without such details people struggle, I guess, to understand what I'm
talking about.
I would like to offer the idea that kids learn mostly from 
what we *do*, not from what we say.  If they see their
parents (and others) showing great consideration to other
people's needs (including the needs of their kids), that's
what they'll be most likely to learn.  

R.

 



>In a message dated 2/20/03 12:09:29 PM, racheli [at] sonoracohousing.com
>writes:

><< Hi Roger,
>I want to address some of what I think your assumptions are:

>1-  Noise is bad.   >>

>Sorry, this misses the point I was trying to make.  Please allow me to
>try  again.

>The point is that people have different ranges of acceptable levels of
>noise  and it may be that those with very little tolerance no longer want
>to put up  with noise may want to avoid it as much as possible, and this
>is one of the  several reasons they want a 50+ cohousing community. 
>Myself, I often like  the "energy" and life of kids playing exuberantly
>and have occasionally been  guilty of riling up the kids myself.  Others
>have less physical tolerance for  the sustained volume and pitch that can
>happen at community gatherings.  This  tolerance tends to decrease with
>age, but is hardly limited to 50+ adults.   One 30-something couple with
>two young children tend to avoid large meals  because of the noise.  BTW,
>the noise and activity "problem" occurs almost e xclusively indoors,
>where the sound and brownian scatter of youngins is  contained by walls
>and roof.  Outdoor noise is rarely, if ever, a problem.

>2)<<In the kibbutz where I grew up there were about 500 members.  All
>those  people and their children ate dinner in one huge hall.  The noise
>was  probably unbearable (in terms of what I'd see as acceptable now),
>yet nobody  seemed to mind.>>

>Maybe (I'm just supposin' here) growing up on a kibbutz socialized you
>and  your fellow kibbutzniks to the noise (who knows, at some level you
>might even  miss the noise).  Kibbutzim, as you know, have been around
>for many decades,  long enough for several generations to grow up and
>have kids and grandkids  there.  Noisy meals are normal.  However, the
>vast majority of cohousing  communities are less than ten years old.  I
>suspect that most cohousing  members did not grow up in a kibbutz or any
>other kind of similar housing  situation and so were not raised with the
>crowds of kids we get in cohousing. 
> We're not used to it.  Perhaps in a generation or two cohousing folks
>will  develop a tolerance for higher levels of sound.  

>3. <<I'd like you and others to consider that while you have a problem
>with  the kids making noise,  kids often have a problem with you (and
>others)  constantly attempting to control their behavior. They probably
>won't tell you  that (they know who has the power), but they resent the
>interference  nevertheless.>>

>There are several issues in this one paragraph and we could spend hours 
>chatting about each one.  I'll try to keep it brief.  
>- I myself don't usually have a problem with kids making noise, although
>I do  sometimes.  But the real issue was covered in # 1 above.
>- As a parent, behaviour control (aka setting limits) is a fact of life. 
> Hopefully, if we do our jobs right, we will teach our children how to
>control  their own behaviour.  New social settings (re: cohousing) can be
>considered  opportunities for teaching children to consider how their
>behaviour affects  not just other children, but adults as well.  All this
>may make me seem like  a control freak, but that's hardly the case.  I am
>not "constantly  attempting" to control kids behaviour.  First of all,
>it's not a constant  problem, especially not for me.  Second, on the rare
>occasion I think it  necessary (which may have been once or twice in
>three years we've been here),  I will ask a parent to step in.   But
>learning how to live with others is one  of the major lessons each
>generation passes on the next.  It puts the "civil"  in civilization.  It
>is one of the cohousing lessons we are still trying to  learn ourselves,
>never mind teach to the kids.  We're working on it. - Kids, especially
>the younger ones, often resent anyone, including their  parents,
>attempting to control their behaviour.  That doesn't mean we should 
>avoid dealing with the issue at hand.  The level and style of control
>that  non-parents may use is still one of the major issues being
>discussed.

>4. <<The more society insists on supervising children all the time, the
>more  they'll seem "out of control" at moments when they are left to
>their own  devices. My opinion is that if they were allowed MORE
>unsupervised time,  rather than less (even though this is obviously
>age-related), their behavior  might improve.>>

>This is an interesting perspective- I'd like to hear what some of our
>social  worker types on this list have to say.

>My non-professional take on this is partly covered in the second section
>of  #3 above; if we as parents have done our jobs well and taught our
>children  how to control their own behaviour, I would wholeheartedly
>agree with you.   But all chidren are "works in progress," with only
>partial controls and  social tools installed and many life lessons to be
>learned.  Rather than  thinking of supervising children as just
>controlling them, I'd rather  approach supervision as an opportunity to
>help them learn to live with  others.  If they can figure it on their
>own, great, they'll probably remember  it better.  We often tell our own
>kids to work out their issues with their  friends on their own.  But
>sometimes they need help, and sometimes they need  control.  Its up to us
>as parents and community members to figure out (here  come those
>discussions again) when to help, when to control and when to stay  out of
>the way.  What say you professionals?

>6. <<IMO "admohishing" might work when someone has a real, and a largely 
>*positive* relationship with a child, (just like with adults! :)  If you 
>don't really know a kid, and the only time she has any  meaningful
>contact  with you is when you lecture her about her allegedly
>inappropriate behavior,  why should she take you seriously?>>

>This, to me, is one of the largest issues we face in cohousing, and I
>agree  with you.    Please don't forget the original context of this
>discussion-  cohousing for 50+ only.  One of the frustrations older
>people in cohousing  have had is lack of opportunity to connect with
>children and form more  positive relationships with them.  There may be
>many possible reasons for  this, but now we are drifting off-topic.  Let
>me just say that if we ever  figure out how to get solve this problem we
>might have fewer 50+ people  wanting to leave multi-generational
>cohousing.

>Roger
>Pathways
>Northampton, MA

>(Who lived on Kibbutz Neve Eitan, just south of Beit She'an, for six
>months  in the early 70's- a major inspiration for choosing to live in
-----------------------------------------------------------
racheli [at] sonoracohousing.com
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